韦斯特曼：特朗普只会加速美国霸权衰落，任何外国都不应干预巴西内政-古斯塔沃·韦斯特曼

当地时间7月6日至7日，金砖国家领导人第十七次会晤在巴西里约热内卢举行并达成了重要宣言。不久后，对金砖国家组织耿耿于怀的美国总统特朗普宣布将对巴西加征50%的关税，自8月1日起生效。

巴西如何看待特朗普的新一轮“关税大棒”？中巴合作的发展潜力在何方？面对矛盾日益突出的世界，金砖国家组织可以发挥怎样的作用？巴西如何发挥自身作为国际调解者角色的独特优势？

就相关话题，“北京对话”与巴西总统府国际事务特别顾问办公室主任古斯塔沃·韦斯特曼交流，带来他的分享。

【文/古斯塔沃·韦斯特曼，对话/李泽西】

**观察者网：**从8月1日起，巴西将面临美国征收的50%关税。美国总统特朗普称，此举部分动机源于对前总统博索纳罗的起诉。昨天，卢拉总统签署了一项贸易对等法，我们很快将看到细则。除此之外，巴西还采取了哪些举措来反击或抵抗美国这种突如其来的贸易攻势？

**韦斯特曼：**嗯，这是个非常复杂的问题，但我认为重点不在于反击，而在于纠偏。特朗普的这些单边制裁或措施完全不符合当前的全球秩序。

首先，我们谈论的是一个主权国家，一个拥有强大民主传统和独立自主法律体系的主权国家。我们起诉前总统博索纳罗是因为他企图发动政变。考虑到巴西遵循的民主程序，任何外国都不应试图干预这一进程。这是第一点。

巴西总统府国际事务特别顾问办公室主任古斯塔沃·韦斯特曼

其次，巴西的一贯立场是通过外交途径谈判，努力为各类争端寻找解决方案。但在这种情况下，我们已准备好采取对等措施，核心就是在巴西对美国产品征收对等关税。

更重要的是，着眼于中长期，我们要启动或加强合作伙伴多元化的战略。在这方面，比如中国，就扮演着非常特殊的角色。我认为特朗普的关税只会加速美国霸权不可避免的衰落进程。我们还会将此案提交给负责处理此类事务的多边机构，如世界贸易组织（WTO），以及其他在全球范围内被认可其调解角色或承担全球事务评估职能的机构。这就是我们正在做的事情，我们对此非常冷静。我认为这完全是出于政治动机，任何外国都不应干涉我们的内部事务。这就是我们的评估。

**观察者网：**您提到巴西的心态未必是反击，更多是纠偏。顺着这个思路，卢拉总统的初步回应，我引述原话是：“特朗普本可以打电话（沟通），却把关税消息发到自己的网站上——这是他对所有人都缺乏尊重的典型行为。”那么，首先，您是否认为缺乏尊重是主要的问题？我感觉这番话表明巴西的第一反应确实是试图寻找出路。同样，副总统最近也提到给美国提出了一项贸易提议，但美方尚未回应。所以，巴西是这么考虑的吗？

**韦斯特曼：**这就是关键问题。特朗普的行为模式让他……我深信在未来的历史书上，他会被记录为美国最愚蠢的领导人之一。这点我非常有把握，因为他不仅伤害世界，也在伤害美国自身。

我们正努力冷静应对，因为处理外交政策时——当然总是会带有情绪——但我们必须理性并着眼长远。我认为这里讨论的是一个外国领导人试图干预我们遵循法定诉讼程序的国内事务。这才是最核心的问题。他宣布的和口头说的一切，很大程度上都是为了影响针对巴西前总统博索纳罗的诉讼程序，而博索纳罗确实曾企图领导一场暗杀——目标包括卢拉总统、阿尔克明副总统和最高法院大法官亚历山大·德·莫拉埃斯（Alexandre de Moraes）——在内的政变。这才是问题的实质。我们非常明确：没有任何国家能影响司法进程，任何威胁都不会影响此类程序。但我们也非常清楚美国的实力、其重要性以及对巴西经济的相关性。

所以我认为，现在当然要批评、当然要反制、当然要表达对他所作所为的不满，但同时也要对话，尝试寻求解决方案并明确告知对方。如果无法通过对话找到解决方案，那么所有反制措施都将付诸实施，事情就会这样发展下去。

当地时间7月10日，巴西圣保罗民众举行示威活动，抗议特朗普宣布对巴西征收关税。 视觉中国

**观察者网：**显然，巴西并非唯一被加征关税的国家。除了此前所谓“解放日”关税政策延续下来的普遍关税外，特朗普还威胁对所有金砖国家征收10%关税，或者说，基本上任何与金砖国家结盟的国家。您认为这种威胁会以任何方式奏效吗？比如，阻止一些潜在伙伴与金砖国家合作，或者削弱金砖国家的团结？还是说，它反而会产生激励金砖国家的相反效果？

**韦斯特曼：**首先，如果这件事让他（特朗普）感到如此在意，那恰恰说明金砖国家的影响力正在上升，对吧？这是件好事，值得庆贺。金砖国家本身就是作为现行全球秩序的替代方案而创立的，我们正在成功构建这个新秩序。这是第一点。如果美国如此不爽，那就证明金砖在发挥作用。这很好，值得庆祝。

关于关税威胁，首先，很难判断他所说的是否当真。特朗普自上任以来就多次做出承诺然后反悔，反复无常。所以我们并不清楚他的真实意图。这一点值得深思。我绝对不认为这会给金砖国家组织带来负面影响。相反，我非常有信心，我们将加强金砖国家之间在商业乃至政治上的联系。通过这样做，我坚信会吸引其他国家和合作伙伴的关注，促使他们也寻求合作伙伴多元化，并将金砖国家组织视为一个良好的起点。所以实际上，到头来这会是件好事，恰恰反映了金砖在当前全球秩序中的实力。

**观察者网：**还有一些报道称，里约热内卢的市长希望在该市设立金砖国家组织总部。这个报道让人联想到关于金砖机制化的一些讨论。有人非常支持设立总部来推进金砖的发展，赋予其一套组织结构；也有人担心这可能导致机构官僚化、效率降低，并可能使其更加僵化。暂且不谈总部选址的问题，您对于是否应该设立金砖总部持什么观点？

**韦斯特曼：**我认为距离讨论设立金砖总部还为时过早。我们目前正在讨论的是该集团的机制完善，这涉及到新成员、新角色等许多议题的讨论，但距离设立常设机构、创建秘书处或常设秘书处还非常遥远；坦率地说，这必须由所有成员国共同商议决定。我认为目前并非最佳的时机，而且重申一遍，我们距离那一步还很远。

这很难说。我认为还非常遥远。目前任何关于设立常设秘书处的说法都只是猜测。成员们甚至还没决定下一任主席国如何轮值，更别说一个常设秘书处要如何运作了。我现在不想深入讨论这个问题，但这确实是未来几年需要各方冷静讨论、逐步推进的议题之一。

**观察者网：**回顾里约的金砖领导人峰会及其前后活动，从巴西的角度看，您认为最大的成果是什么？另一方面，又有哪些遗憾或需要进一步努力的地方？

**韦斯特曼：**应该说当前的全球背景极其复杂；因此我认为，金砖峰会能达成一份领导人宣言和另外三份宣言——分别涉及人工智能、资助应对气候变化以及卫生领域——本身就反映了金砖国家付出的巨大努力和坚定承诺。这是一场胜利，不容否认。所以，能将金砖议程置于全球视野并取得具体成果，这绝对是值得庆贺的。

2025年7月7日，巴西里约热内卢，巴西总统卢拉在第17届金砖国家峰会新闻发布会上讲话。 视觉中国

从我个人角度看，有点令人失望的是什么？当然，我们总是期望或寻求更大的抱负，对吧？所以我非常希望能看到一份更具雄心的宣言，带来更多成果，并谴责例如以色列在巴勒斯坦的袭击等许多其他问题。

但我们不应忘记，金砖的决策是基于共识做出的。因此我们必须共同努力推进这些议题。不过总体而言，我认为峰会还是不错的，相当积极。

**观察者网：**转向巴中关系，最近讨论的一个话题是修建一条连接秘鲁钱凯港（Chancay）与巴西东海岸港口的铁路的可能性。目前看来，似乎还只是可行性研究的起步阶段。从您的角度看，尤其是从经济角度，这个项目的可行性如何？

**韦斯特曼：**嗯，我对这个项目的具体细节确实不太清楚，但可以谈谈对这些变量相互组合的看法。

首先，我认为巴中关系已经取得了长足进步。现在的挑战在于提升关系的质量。我们的双边贸易额巨大，但我们仍然缺乏高科技产品，或者说需要提升贸易附加值，尤其是巴西方面。我认为我们还需要在战略层面加强协作，而近年来这方面也在不断改善。我们需要推动两国社会、科技园区和大学的交流融合，这方面仍有待加强。

在巴西领土上建设由中国出资或采用中国技术的铁路，这个构想听起来很棒。巴西的地理条件非常适合铁路运输。在上世纪60年代，我们做出了错误的选择，优先发展了公路交通和汽车，时至今日我们仍在为这个糟糕的决定付出代价。巴西拥有发展铁路的绝佳地理条件，然而我们却只有公路，铁路网络非常薄弱。

因此，我相信，只要遵循所有相关法律程序，如果中企竞标胜出或成为该项目的主要合作伙伴，这将会进一步增强我们的双边关系。所以这是一件好事，是我们（政府）应该鼓励和支持的事情。巴中有必要更紧密合作，这一点已变得非常清晰。

**观察者网：**您谈到了促进双方人员交流。今年5月卢拉总统访华时，中国向包括巴西在内的多个国家试行了免签入境政策。巴西通常实行签证对等原则，即任何给予巴西免签待遇的国家，巴西也会给予对方同等待遇；反之亦然。鉴于这一点，我们或许可以预期巴西很快也会向中国公民提供免签入境待遇，但这在金砖峰会前显然尚未实现，那么我们何时可以期待此事落实？

**韦斯特曼：**嗯，这是一个更复杂的议题，由我们外交部的同事负责。这肯定在我们的考虑范围内，我们一直在讨论此事，我认为会实现的，只是需要确定时间；我预计很快会实现，但这事要复杂得多。别忘了中国有14亿人口。因此这不是一个能轻易做出的决定，它涉及诸多变量，必须谨慎对待。但没错，这完全在我们的考虑范围内，让我们拭目以待。我们应该持续关注此事。

**观察者网：**关于巴西整体的对外战略，我最近听您在一次会议上的发言提到，巴西的一大国际议程是促成对立各方坐下来对话谈判，尤其是解决冲突。当然，并非只有巴西采取这种定位。印度在谈论这点，土耳其也在谈论这点。阿联酋、沙特阿拉伯，甚至特朗普治下的美国（尽管特朗普参与了打击伊朗的行动），也把自己定位为以色列和伊朗之间的某种和平调解人。中国也在中东推动了一些和解协议。考虑到这么多国家都有意充当谈判者或调解人，巴西有什么特别之处，使其成为谈判解决冲突的良好伙伴？或许您能谈谈巴西在乌克兰和平提案方面的进展，以及您提到希望看到谴责以色列在加沙战争的声明，巴西是否也在尝试推动该地区的和平？

**韦斯特曼：**嗯，在回答之前，让我们停下来想一想。在当今如此两极分化的世界里，哪些国家有能力调解冲突或将不同意见汇聚一堂？实际上非常少。而巴西无疑会是所有人首先想到的国家之一。为什么呢？

当地时间7月6日，印度总理莫迪与巴西总统卢拉在金砖国家峰会上交谈。 美联社

巴西拥有和平解决冲突的伟大传统。我们没有战争，没有敌人，我们与邻国和平相处。巴西自联合国成立之初就是其成员。巴西一贯将自己定位为对话与和解的力量。卢拉总统的领导力（他无疑是当今最伟大的领导人或政治家之一）也对此有贡献，他来自人民，并理解人民。我认为所有这些因素——还包括地区领导力、经济体量、人口规模——都使巴西成为一个值得信赖的国家。当然，我们有自己的问题，但谈到重大问题时，巴西绝对是一个值得信赖的国家。

你提到的其他几个国家当然也极其重要。但例如印度，我在印度生活过，印度与中国存在问题，你们之间的间接冲突已持续了相当一段时间；印度与巴基斯坦也存在矛盾。你提到的沙特阿拉伯与一些邻国存在严重的问题，包括其他一些国家，比如阿联酋，如此小的国家，尽管非常富有，但他们在领导力和调解能力方面能带来什么样的公信力？我并非在说这些国家的坏话，绝对不是。我认为任何愿意为当前冲突寻求和平解决方案的国家都在为此做贡献。但我非常有信心，巴西在这方面能发挥战略性作用。

话虽如此，这也取决于冲突本身或冲突各方是否接受试图调解的国家的合法性。我们要说的是，我们已准备好提供支持，正如我们已在地区层面乃至世界其他地区冲突中所做的那样。当然，这取决于这些国家是否接受我们的支持和提议。

巴西和中国一直在认真致力于为乌克兰战争寻求和平解决方案。我们一直在此事上合作，尽管迄今为止尚未取得重大进展。我们在纽约的常驻联合国代表之间持续进行讨论，事情正在推进。

关于以色列的战争，情况则更为复杂，因为我们理解这是以色列在巴勒斯坦实施的一场明显的种族灭绝，这使局势更加困难。我们并非支持或反对哪一方，而是谴责那里正在发生的事情。这是一场明确的冲突，一次明显的种族灭绝企图，这在任何情况下都不应被接受。这就是巴西的立场，我相信我们有很好的条件做出贡献，但这当然也取决于冲突各方。

**观察者网：**您提到与中国合作推动在乌克兰实现和平。巴西是否也在与现任美国政府合作？至少直到最近，美国似乎也相当支持该冲突的和平进程。

**韦斯特曼：**并没有。目前，由于显而易见的原因，我们与美国的关系并非最佳。而美国的自我定位是极其专断的，尽管它是一个民主国家。因此，他们在寻求解决当前冲突的合作伙伴方面，并未真正与其他国家进行对话。我们只是在关注事态发展，但在这些进程中我们并未与美国密切合作。

**观察者网：**您提到之前曾在巴西驻印度大使馆贸易处工作。显然，是直接参与构建连接金砖国家的纽带。能否谈谈这段经历，描述一下您做了什么？

**韦斯特曼：**我认为这段经历给我带来的主要收获，特别是对金砖国家的思考，是有机会理解印度这个国家。我认为通过在印度生活——而且我已经去过中国很多很多次——通过旅行、了解、访问、略微理解它们的社会，才能更好地理解金砖国家为何有意义，以及我们如何才能真正开展合作。对很多人来说，这仍然很遥远。以你为例，你刚来巴西，所以你看，尽管存在差异，但你也看到了我们国家之间关系的潜力和合作前景。

在印度，让我印象深刻的一点——这也是金砖国家的基石之一——是你看到世界在变化，发展在进行中；在中国也一样，如果你离开上海几年再回去，城市景观已然不同，因为进步在持续。这是你在欧洲看不到的，在美国也看不到，尤其是欧洲，那是旧的——并非不好，只是旧了。金砖国家是新的，是进步，是变革，是世界经济的新中心，因此也将在未来的政治现实中占据核心地位。所以，我认为这就是我在巴西驻印度大使馆贸易处工作经历中最大的收获。

当地时间7月6日，金砖国家领导人第十七次会晤在巴西里约热内卢正式开幕。 彭博社

**观察者网：**您首先提出了一个问题：金砖国家何以有意义？根据回答，我推测您的答案是，所有金砖国家的共同点在于这种进步感和变革感。这意味着什么？这种进步的涵义是什么？对彼此合作意味着什么？对金砖议程意味着什么？对金砖作为一个组织又意味着什么？

**韦斯特曼：**首先，这些国家正从内部改变世界。世界的新中产阶级正来自这些国家，技术和进步正来自这些国家，所以在金砖国家内部正发生着很多事情。这意味着这些国家作为贸易伙伴、政治伙伴、经济和金融伙伴、文化盟友的潜力将会增长。在我看来，这一点很重要，如果你纵观历史数据，往往是经济先开始腾飞，随后政治和软实力影响力的增长才接踵而至。

因此，我们目前仍处于——当然主要是由中国引领，也包括印度、巴西、俄罗斯、南非——如果我们考虑到这些国家将是未来几十年、乃至几个世纪内的世界经济增长引擎，你就必须承认，随之而来的是，他们也将在政治、金融上引领世界。而通过现在就开始合作，我认为当那一刻到来时——当最终建立一个更公正、公平的国际秩序的时刻到来时——我们会更加成熟。

金砖国家诞生的本质就是将我们这些国家凝聚在一起：改变世界，确保占世界GDP50%的经济体能被有效倾听或参与决策。这就是我对这些事情的看法。

**观察者网：**在国际乃至国内正义方面，卢拉总统非常关心的一项议题是对超级富豪征收国际税。这是去年在二十国集团峰会上提出的。今年，我记得您在一次会议上也提出过，哈达德（Haddad）也在新开发银行（NDB）年度论坛上提及。当然，自G20以来的几个月，全球格局在此问题上已发生变化，尤其是现在我们可能无法期待来自美国的任何合作，甚至美国可能完全反对并攻击这一议程。在新的地缘政治和国际格局下，巴西将如何推动此事？

**韦斯特曼：**嗯，我们会继续推动。世界上正在发生的事情是极其不公平的，而且毫无道理。最新数据显示，从2015年到2022年，全球最富有的1%人群的财富增加了33万亿美元。这笔钱本可以解决世界的极端贫困和饥饿问题。本可以解决气候变化等许多全球性问题。但为什么？这些资源被用到哪里去了？

过去，在经济学理论中，有些人常说必须先做大蛋糕，然后再合理分配。历史已经证明这行不通。一旦蛋糕做大了，富人只会变得更富，人与人之间的社会等级鸿沟反而会加深。

因此，我们将坚持对超级富豪征税，当然还包括我们正在讨论的许多其他议题，比如债务问题——这已成为当今时代发展面临的最大挑战。当你看到全球南方国家向北方国家支付超过1.4万亿美元的债务利息（偿债支出），而他们获得的官方发展援助却不足2000亿美元。

所以，我们在世界上看到的，是资本的逆流——南方国家向北方输送资源。这是行不通的。

另一件事是金融治理、金融架构的改革。我们在这些进程中的代表性不足。税收问题，当然包括对超级富豪征税，但也包括在其他事务上的合作。我们对所有这些议题都非常关切。我们会持续推动这项议程。

对超级富豪征税并不简单，因为我们没有国际机构来征收这笔税，也没有决定将这笔资源投向何处以及如何扩大资源的机制。我们还没有这样的治理模式。但我们正在研究针对超级富豪征税的国家方案，建立全球基金。这应成为每个国家的优先事项。

巴西戈亚斯州奥里佐纳的工人们在农场收割大豆。 视觉中国

**观察者网：**我们开场谈到了特朗普干预巴西即将到来的选举。现在，很多关于金砖国家以及展望即将举行的2025年联合国气候变化大会（COP30）的国际报道推测，卢拉总统打算利用这些活动来巩固其外交成就，为即将到来的选举造势。您认为这些报道的准确性如何？无论是否准确，卢拉将自己定位为能够召集多国共商要事的领导人，这种做法在帮助他赢得更多选举支持方面可能有多大的效果？

**韦斯特曼：**这很难回答；我觉得这需要很多时间才能说清楚。

巴西的选举进程属于国内事务；当然，历史上外国伙伴的支持也很重要。但我们现在看到的是，极右翼势力——包括特朗普、巴西前总统博索纳罗以及当今世界许多其他极右翼领导人——正与大型资本、大型工业集团、大型科技公司结盟，在全球范围内为自己提供资金支持。

当然，特朗普已间接声明，他将支持巴西的极右翼势力，会在资金上、技术上提供支持，这正是我们所担忧的。

作为应对方案的一部分，我们必须将民主国家和进步国家团结起来。例如，下周，卢拉总统将与西班牙首相佩德罗·桑切斯（Pedro Sánchez）、智利总统博里奇（Boric）以及哥伦比亚总统佩特罗（Petro）会面，讨论世界民主问题。因此，我们当然正在制定或创建战略，以团结进步国家。

问题在于，极右翼在集结力量方面似乎更有效率，这非常令人担忧；他们拥有更多资源，更不讲道德，他们操纵信息，更善于利用假新闻。我们当然必须对此保持警惕，但我们正在制定战略以遏制这种损害，并团结和支持进步国家。所以我们将拭目以待。

但同时要记住，巴西的选举足够强大，巴西的民主也足够强大，能够向世界表明，我们的进程是基于巴西人民主权意志的国家进程，任何外国都无权、也没有空间干预这一进程。

**观察者网：**最后一个问题，巴西极右翼势力可能认同的立场之一，就是当前美国政府明确的反金砖国家组织立场。而即将到来的选举，各方都认为竞争将非常激烈，反对派候选人很可能获胜。考虑到这一风险，特别是对巴西持续付出的金砖承诺的风险，您认为可以采取哪些措施来建立持久的民间社会对金砖国家的支持，无论选举结果如何？

**韦斯特曼：**嗯，这正是当今世界面临的重大挑战之一，即确保我们拥有足够可信的机构，特别是那些超越当选政府意愿的国际机构、国际协议和机制。政府通常更迭频繁，而这些机构是持久的。

因此，我们深信在巴西，民间社会在这一进程中的作用至关重要。我们必须增加社会参与各类国际事务的机制，从金砖国家到联合国机构，到G20，再到WTO，我们将支持民间社会（包括私营部门、学术界、社会运动以及各类非政府利益相关方）发挥作用，以确保无论政府如何更迭，这些机构都能保持连贯性，并符合全球民众的真实愿望。

这很难。巴西现在相信，政府的更迭也会影响政策，会削弱民间社会在国内和国际上的作用和声音，但我们正在努力做的是播下种子。例如，我们在G20框架内创建了“社会G20”（Social G20）。我们最终得以在金砖国家领导人会晤期间让民间社会向领导人发声。我们正邀请民间社会代表在南方共同市场（Mercosur）会议、亚马逊峰会（Amazon Summit）上发言。COP30的筹备过程也体现了我们推动社会参与的进程。我们让谈判代表与民间社会对话。因此，我们正在尽力而为，希望明年有机会继续推进这个项目。

采访原文：

Jersey Lee: Brazil is about to be subject, starting in August 1, to a 50% tariff by the U.S., that U.S. President Trump says is partly motivated by the prosecution against former President Bolsonaro. Yesterday, President Lula signed a trade reciprocity law that we will soon see the details of. So other than that, what are some of Brazil’s other attempts to either fight back or resist this sudden trade aggression by the U.S.?

Gustavo Westmann: Well, that’s a very complex question, Jersey, but I think it’s not about fighting back. It’s about making things right. So these unilateral sanctions or unilateral measures by Trump, they are completely not in synchronicity with the current global order.

First of all, we are talking about a sovereign country, a sovereign nation with a strong democracy, a democratic tradition, and a legal system that has its own independence, and we’re prosecuting former President Bolsonaro for his attempt of coup d’etat. No other foreign country should have intention of influencing such process, considering that it’s been following the democratic track. So that’s the first part of it.

So that said, the idea of Brazil is always to negotiate diplomatically and try to find solutions to all sorts of contentions. But in this case, we are ready to apply reciprocal measures, and the idea is to apply equivalent tariffs to American products in Brazil. And also, and above all, thinking on the medium and long term, starting or increasing our strategy to diversify partnerships. And that’s a place in which China, for instance, has a very special role. I think what it is doing is only speeding up an unavoidable process of fall of the U.S. hegemony. We will also take the case to the multilateral institutions that are responsible for dealing with such matters, such as the WTO and all other institutions that have worldwide acceptancy over their role as conciliatory or institutes to evaluate these matters globally. That’s what we’re doing. We’re very sober about it. I think its been politically motivated and no foreign countries should interfere in our processes. That’s how we’re evaluating that.

Jersey Lee: So you mentioned about Brazil perhaps having a mindset not necessarily about fighting back, but more about making things right. And in this vein, President Lula’s, I think, first reaction was that, and this was a quote, “Trump could have called, but instead posted the tariff news on his website—a complete lack of respect, which is typical of his behavior towards everyone”. So I suppose, first of all, would you say that perhaps the lack of respect is the primary issue? I suppose what this quote kind of says to me is that Brazil’s first response was indeed to kind of try to find a way out of this. In this vein, there’s also the vice president’s recent remarks about giving the U.S. a trade offer, which they haven’t responded to. So I guess is that how Brazil is thinking about this?

Gustavo Westmann: Man, so that’s the thing. Trump has a kind of behavioral pattern that makes him… I’m very confident that in the future, when we read history books, he will be one of the dumbest US leaders ever. That’s something I’m very confident about, because he’s only harming not only the world, but the US itself.

We are trying to be sober to deal with it, because you don’t deal with foreign policy—Of course, passion is always part of the deal—but we have to be rational and think about the long term. I think what we are discussing here is an attempt of a foreign leader to influence our domestic processes that are following the due process of law. So that is the greatest deal. Pretty much everything he announced and he said was an attempt to influence the process against former President Bolsonaro, who indeed tried to lead a coup d’etat that included the assassination, an attempted assassination of President Lula, Vice President Alckmin, and Supreme Court Judge Alexandre de Moraes. So that’s what’s in the discussion here. And we are very clear that no country will influence this process. No sort of threats will influence this kind of processes. But we are very aware about the power of the US, its importance, its relevance to the Brazilian economy.

So I think now it’s time to of course criticize, of course retaliate, of course express our dissatisfaction with what he’s doing, but also to dialogue and try to find a solution by making it clear. If we won’t find a solution through dialogue, then all the retaliation measures will be applied and that’s how things are going to work.

Jersey Lee: So, obviously, Brazil is not the only country that has been slapped with tariffs. Aside from all the other general tariffs that follow from the previous so-called Liberation Day, Trump also threatened all BRICS countries with a 10% tariff, or basically any country that even aligns with BRICS.

So do you think that this threat will be effective in any way, either by perhaps deterring some potential partners from working with BRICS, or perhaps to undermine BRICS solidarity, or perhaps would it have the opposite effect of motivating BRICS?

Gustavo Westmann: Well, first of all, if it bothered him so much that means that BRICS is gaining relevance, okay? So that’s a good thing, and that’s something we must celebrate. BRICS has been created as an alternative to the current global order, and we are being successful in building this new order. So that’s the first thing. If it bothers the U.S. so much, that means the BRICS is working. And that’s good, a reason to celebrate.

Regarding the tariffs, first of all, it’s very difficult to understand whether what he’s saying is serious or not. So since the beginning of his administration, he has already promised things and came back and sat back and more. So we don’t really know what’s his deal. So that’s something to be thinking. I definitely don’t think it will affect Brics in a negative way. On the contrary, I’m pretty confident that we will increase the relations both commercially but also politically among Brics nations. And by doing so, I’m very confident that it will attract the attention of other nations and partners, trying also to diversify their partnerships and finding in Brics a good mechanism to start with. So actually, in the end of the day, that’s good. That only reflects the strength of Brics in the current global order.

Jersey Lee: So there has also been some reports that the mayor of Rio wants to set up a BRICS headquarter in Rio. So thinking about this report, this brings to mind some discussions about the institutionalization of BRICS. Some people are very much supportive of having a headquarter to advance BRICS, to give it a structure, others might be concerned that it might bureaucratize the organization, might make it less efficient, and also might make it more rigid. So, even aside from where to have a potential BRICS headquarter, what’s your view of whether we should even have a BRICS headquarter?

Gustavo Westmann: I think we are very far from that kind of discussions in BRICS Jersey. We are now discussing the institutional improvement of the group and that’s involving discussions on the new role of the new members, so lots of things in discussion, but we’re very far from getting to the institutional or creating a secretariat or permanent secretariat for this; frankly speaking that’s a discussion that has to be done by all members all together. The moment is not the best one for that, I believe, and again we’re very far from that.

It’s difficult to say. I think we’re very far from that. Anything we say about creating a permanent secretariat will be speculation. The members cannot even decide whether the next presidencies or how the next presidencies are going to work; imagine how a permanent secretariat works. I wouldn’t bother dipping into this discussion right now, but that’s some part of discussion to be taken forward in the next years, but calmly and discussed by all parties.

Jersey Lee: Looking back on the Rio leader summit and the events immediately before and after that, what would you say were the biggest results from Brazil’s perspective? And also on the other hand, from Brazil’s perspective, what are some perhaps misses or perhaps things that need further work?

Gustavo Westmann: Let’s say that the current global context is extremely complex; so I believe that having a leader’s declaration, having three other declarations, one on intelligence, one of financing the fight on climate change, the other one on health, they all reflect a great effort and a great commitment of BRICS countries. So that was a victory. We cannot deny it. So definitely the fact of putting BRICS agenda on the radar and having concrete results on that is definitely something to celebrate.

From my personal perspective, what can I tell you that disappointed a little bit? Of course, we are always looking or searching for more ambition, right? So I would love to see a very ambitious declaration leading to more outcomes and condemning, for example, the Israeli attacks in Palestine or, well, so many other things.

But we should not forget, we must not forget that BRICS decisions are made based on consensus. So we have to work together on these things. But I think it was good. I think it was quite positive overall.

Jersey Lee: So moving to China-Brazil relations, one thing that’s been recently discussed is a possibility of building a railway that links Chancay port with a port on the east coast of Brazil. So right now, apparently, it’s just the start of feasibility studies. So from your perspective, what’s the feasibility of such a project, especially from an economic perspective?

Gustavo Westmann: Well, I don’t really know the details about it, but what I can tell you regarding this combination of variables. First of all, I think the relationship between Brazil and China have already improved quite a lot. The challenge now is to improve in terms of quality. Our bilateral trade is huge, but we still lack high technology products, or we need to add value to our trade, especially on the Brazilian side. I think also we need to work more strategically together, and that’s something that has been improving in recent years. We have to bring together our societies, bring together our scientific parks, universities. So that’s something that still has to improve.

The idea of working on a railway financed or with the Chinese technology in Brazilian territory sounds great. Brazil has a great location for trains. During the 60s, we made a wrong decision and we opted to roads and cars. and we’re still paying the price for that bad choice in the current days. Brazil has the perfect territory for railways, and yet we only have cars, we have a very poor railway net. So I believe following all the legal processes involved, if China wins or if China is to be the main partner in this project, that will only increase our bilateral relations. So that’s something good, something to incentivize from our side, from the government side. It has become very clear that Brazil and China have more to work closer together.

Jersey Lee: So you talked about bringing people from both sides together. And in May, when Lula visited Beijing, China offered a number of countries, including Brazil, visa-free access to China. Now, Brazil generally has a visa reciprocity system principle where generally any country that offers Brazil visa free access, Brazil does the same in exchange, and any country that stops offering Brazil visa free access, Brazil also stops offering visa free access in exchange. Given this, we should expect perhaps Brazil to soon offer Chinese visa-free access to Brazil. But that obviously hasn’t happened before the BRICS Summit, so when could we expect this?

Gustavo Westmann: Well, that’s a more complex discussion and it’s under responsibility of our colleagues from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Definitely on the radar, so something we’ve been discussing, and I think it’s gonna happen, we just need to figure out when; I would expect it to happen soon, but it’s a lot more complex. You should not forget that China has 1.3 billion people. So that’s not such an obvious decision to be made, it involve lots of variables, and it has to be taken carefully, but yes, it’s totally on the radar, and let’s see. We should keep monitoring that.

Jersey Lee: In terms of Brazil’s general international approach, I listened to you speak at a recent conference where you mentioned one of Brazil’s big international agendas is to get opposing sides to sit down together and talk and negotiate, especially out of conflicts. Of course, it’s not just Brazil that’s been positioning themselves this way. India has been talking about this. Turkey has been talking about this. UAE, Saudi Arabia, even the U.S. under Trump, even though Trump participated in the Iran strike, later Trump positioned himself as kind of a peacemaker between Israel and Iran. China has also pushed a number of rapprochement deals in the Middle East. So, given all of these countries interested in serving as kind of a negotiator or facilitator of negotiations. What’s special about Brazil that makes it a good partner to negotiate resolution? Perhaps could you mention progress in Brazil’s Ukraine peace proposal, as well as you mentioned your desire to see some statement condemning Israel in its war on Gaza, perhaps is there some attempt by Brazil to get peace there?

Gustavo Westmann: Well, let’s say, before I answer, just stop and think. Which countries in the world would be able to moderate conflicts or to bring diverse opinions in such a polarized world together? Actually, there are very few. And Brazil would definitely come to everyone’s mind as a first thing. Why is that?

Brazil has a great tradition of peaceful solution of conflicts. We have no wars, we have no enemies. We have a peaceful neighborhood. Brazil has been a member of the UN from its very foundation. Brazil has always positioned itself in terms of dialogue and conciliation. The leadership of President Lula, which is definitely one of the greatest leaders or statesmen in the current days, contributes to that, the fact that it comes from the people and he understands people. I think all these, of course, the regional leadership, economy, population, all these variables position Brazil as a country to be trusted. Of course, we have our problems. But when talking about great processes, Brazil is definitely a country to be trusted.

You mentioned a few other countries that are extremely important, of course. But for example, India; I lived in India. India has a problem with China. You’ve been in indirect conflict for quite a while. India has a problem with Pakistan. You mentioned South Arabia. Saudi Arabia has a great problem with some of its neighborhoods. You mentioned a few other countries. Well, the United Arab Emirates, such a small country, even though that’s a very rich country. What kind of credibility in terms of leadership and moderation power they are bringing to the fore? I’m not saying bad things about these countries, definitely not. And I think every country that is willing to find peaceful solutions to the current conflict is contributing to that. But I’m pretty confident that Brazil has a strategic role in this sense.

That said, it depends, of course, on the conflict or the nations in conflict to accept the legitimacy of the country trying to moderate the conflict. What we say is that we are ready to offer our support as we’ve already done regionally and several other conflicts worldwide. But of course, it depends on these countries to accept or not our support and our offer.

Brazil and China have been seriously working on a peaceful solution to the war in Ukraine. We’ve been working together on that, even though we did not make significant progress so far. The discussions continue in New York between our permanent representatives to the UN, and things have been working out.

Regarding the Israeli war, the things are a bit more complex, because we understand that that’s a clear genocide from Israel in Palestine, and that makes situations more difficult. It’s not that we are for or against one or another, but we are condemning what’s going on there. There is a clear conflict, a clear attempted genocide, and that should not be accepted in any case. So that’s how Brazil has been positioned itself, and I believe we have great conditions to contribute, but it will, of course, depend on the nations in conflict.

Jersey Lee: So you mentioned working with China on getting peace in Ukraine. Is Brazil also working with the current US administration, which seems to be, at least until recently, very much for peace in that conflict?

Gustavo Westmann: Not really. Currently, our relations with the U.S. are not at their best for obvious reasons. And the way the U.S. has been positioning itself is extremely authoritarian, even though they are a democracy. So they’re not really dialoguing with other nations in search for partnerships in solving the current conflict. So we’re just monitoring things, but no, we are not working close with the US in these processes.

Jersey Lee: You mentioned your former role in Brazil’s embassy in India, working in the trade office. Obviously, this would be direct involvement in the connective tissue that ties BRICS countries together. Could you talk a bit about that, describe what you did?

Gustavo Westmann: I think the main thing out of these this experience, and thinking about BRICS, is having the opportunity to understand this country. I think by living in India—and I’ve been to China many, many times already—And by traveling, by knowing, by visiting, by understanding a little bit the societies of these countries, we better understand how BRICS makes sense and how we indeed can work together. To many people, it’s still too far away. In your case, for example, you just came to Brazil. So you see, despite differences, you also see the potential of the relations between our nations and working together. In India, something that called my attention—and that’s one of the cornerstones of BRICS—is that you see the world changing, you see the development going on; you see the same in China, like if you stay away from Shanghai just a couple of years, when you go back, the city, the landscape is already different, because progress is ongoing. That’s something you don’t see in Europe, and that’s something you don’t see in the US, especially Europe, that’s the old—it’s not bad, it’s just the old. BRICS is the new, is the progress, the transformation, the new center of the world economy and consequently in the future of the political reality. So I think that’s what I took the most from my experience at the Trade Office at the Embassy of Brazil in India.

Jersey Lee: So you first raised a question, how does BRICS make sense? And I suppose, listening to your response, your answer to that question would be that what all BRICS countries have in common is this sense of progress, of change. So what does that mean? What are the implications of this progress, what does mean in terms of cooperating each other, what does that mean in terms of the agendas, and also for BRICS as an organization?

Gustavo Westmann: To start with, these are the countries that are changing the world from inside. The new middle class of the world is coming from these countries. Technology, progress is coming from these countries. So there is a lot going on in BRICS nations. That means that the potential of these countries as trade partners, as political partners, as economics and finance partners, as cultural allies, we will increase. In my vision, and that’s important to say, if you see the data historically, where the economy starts booming, then later it comes political and soft power influence. So we are still, especially led by China, of course, also by India, Brazil, Russia, South Africa, if we take into consideration that these countries will be the engine of the world economy in the next decades and centuries, you have to admit that as a consequence, they will also be leading the world politically, financially. And by start working together now, I think we will be more mature when this moment comes, when the moment comes for us to finally have a more just and fair international order, as BRICS was born, that’s the nature that brought us together as BRICS nations: to change the world, to make sure that 50% of the world GDP is effectively listened to or be part of the decision-making. So that’s how I see these things.

Jersey Lee: In terms of international or even domestic justice, one thing that’s very close to President Lula’s heart is the idea of an international tax on the super rich. And this was something that was raised in G20 last year. And this year, I remember you raised it in a conference, and Haddad also raised this in the NDB annual forum. Of course, in the months that have elapsed since G20, there has been a change in the global landscape on this, especially now that we probably can’t expect any degree of cooperation from the U.S., and perhaps the U.S. might even be totally against this and might even attack this process. So how would Brazil push for this given the new geopolitical and international landscape?

Gustavo Westmann: Well, Jersey, we’ll keep pushing. What’s going on in the world is extremely unfair and it doesn’t make sense at all. So the recent data has shown that from 2015 to 2022, the wealth of the 1% richest people in the world increased by $33 trillion. This amount of money could have solved the problem of extreme poverty and hunger in the world. It could have solved so many, the climate change problem in the world. And why? What is happening with these resources?

So in the past, in the economic theory, some people used to say that you have to first to increase the size of the cake and then you split it accordingly. History has shown that this doesn’t work. Once you increase the size of the cake, you make the wealthy even wealthier, and you will increase the social gap between human beings.

So we will insist on taxing the super-rich, and of course, so many other things we’re talking about, issues such as debt, that has become the greatest challenge to development in the current days. When you see the people in the Global South, pay over 1.4 trillion in the services of debt to the North, while receiving less than $200 billion in official assistance to development.

So what we are doing in the world, is we are seeing the negative flux of capital, the South sending resources to the North. And that’s not working.

Another thing is the reform of the financial governance, the financial architecture. We are underrepresented in these processes. Taxation, of course, that includes the taxation of super-rich, but also cooperation in other matters. So we are very concerned about all these issues. And you keep pushing the agenda. Taxation of super-rich is not simple because we don’t have international institutions to tax the super-rich, on where to put these resources and how to expand the resource. We still don’t have this governance model. But we are working on national solutions to the taxation of super rich, the creation of global funds. And that should be a priority to every nation.

Jersey Lee: So we opened with a question on Trump interfering in Brazil’s upcoming elections. Now, a lot of international coverage over BRICS and looking forward to the upcoming COP30 has hypothesized that President Lula intends to use these to shore up his foreign policy credentials for the upcoming elections. So how accurate would you describe these report, and regardless of how accurate it is, how effective might Lula positioning himself as someone who can bring many countries together to talk about important issues, how effective would that be in helping him get more support electorally?

Gustavo Westmann: Oh man, that’s tough; I think that answer needs a lot of time.

So Brazilian electoral process is a national process; of course, historically the support of foreign partners has been important. But what we are seeing in the current days is that the extreme right, which includes Trump, which includes President Bolsonaro in Brazil, and so many other leaderships in the current world, they are aligning themselves with great capital, with great industry, with the great tech companies to finance themselves worldwide.

Of course, Trump has already declared, even though indirectly, that he will support the extreme right in Brazil. By doing so, he’ll do that financially, he’ll do that technologically, and that’s something that we are concerned about.

And as part of our reaction, we have to bring democracies and progressive nations together. For example, now, the next week, President Lula is going to meet President of Spain, Pedro Sanchez, Boric, president of Chile, and Pedro, president of Colombia, to discuss democracy in the world. So we are, of course, working or creating strategies to bring progressive nations together. The problem is the extreme right is being more effective in aligning forces, and that’s very worrisome; they have more resources, they have less ethics, they manipulate information, they deal better with fake news. Of course we must be concerned about it, but we are working on strategies to contain such damage and to align and also to support progressive nations. So we’ll see what’s going to happen.

But also keeping in mind that the elections in Brazil is strong enough and Brazilian democracy is strong enough to show to the world that our process is a national process based on the sovereign will of the Brazilian population, and no foreign nation will have space or will have the right to interfere in such process.

Jersey Lee: So a final question. One of the positions that the far right in Brazil might align with is with the current US administration’s explicitly anti-BRICS view. But the upcoming election, by all accounts, is shaping up to be quite a competitive one that some candidate from the opposition could very well win. And so given this risk, especially to Brazil’s ongoing BRICS commitments, what do you think are some measures that could be done to build enduring civil society support for BRICS, regardless of election results?

Gustavo Westmann: Well, that’s something that is one of the great challenges of the current days, Jersey, worldwide is to make sure that we have institutions credible enough, especially international institutions and international agreements and mechanisms that go beyond the willingness of elected governments. Governments, they come and go, normally. These institutions, they remain.

So we are convinced here in Brazil that the role of civil society in this process is crucial. We have to increase the mechanisms of social participation in all sorts of spheres, from BRICS to UN institutions, to G20, to WTO. And we will support the role of civil society, including private sector, academy, social movements and all sorts of non-government stakeholders, to make sure that regardless of changes in governments, these institutions remain coherent and in line with the authentic wishes of the global population.

It’s tough. Brazil now believes that a change of government would also impact strategies, would reduce the role and the voices of civil society nationally and internationally. But what we’re trying to do is plant seeds. For example, we created the social G20 in the G20. We finally had the opportunity to bring the civil society to speak to the leaders at the BRICS. We are bringing civil society representatives to speak at Mercosur meetings, at Amazon Summit meetings. COP30 has been a process that has been reflecting our processes of social participation. We’re bringing negotiators to talk to civil society. So we’re trying to do our part. And we hope we’ll have the chance to continue this project in the next year.

本文系观察者网独家稿件，文章内容纯属作者个人观点，不代表平台观点，未经授权，不得转载，否则将追究法律责任。关注观察者网微信guanchacn，每日阅读趣味文章。