梅丽莎·弗莱明：我去非洲出差时，发现那里的中国记者比西方记者还多

联合国难民署6月24日表示，全球难民人数持续上升，约有250万人急需获得新的安置机会。在美国特朗普政府频频“退群”、切断对联合国难民救济工作的资金援助下，相关国际合作正面临更大的不确定性。

近日，北京对话（智库）联合创始人、秘书长韩桦女士同联合国主管全球传播事务的副秘书长梅丽莎·弗莱明对话，分享了她对联合国的各方面工作、社交媒体时代的舆论传播与话语构建的看法。观察者网获权发布。

北京对话（智库）联合创始人、秘书长韩桦对话联合国主管全球传播事务副秘书长梅丽莎·弗莱明

【文/梅丽莎·弗莱明，对话/韩桦】

**韩桦：**那我们先从您的书开始聊起。在书里您讲述了杜娅的故事。您为什么选择用个人的故事，而不是用数据或政策分析来呈现难民危机呢？

**弗莱明：**当你在谈论难民时，其实是在谈论数百万人——但这些只是数字。数字无法真正触动人心，尤其是当规模如此庞大的时候。事实上，行为科学研究表明，庞大的数字反而会产生反作用，甚至引发恐惧。我们真正需要的是让公众理解并接纳难民，而最能触动人们内心的就是讲述个体的故事。这一结论来自行为科学领域的实证研究，也在杜娅的故事中得到了印证——她的经历具有普遍性，每个难民都能在其中看到自己的影子。

**韩桦：**很好。不过在这么多难民的故事中，你肯定接触过无数个个体的经历，有没有哪个瞬间让你最深刻地感受到人类坚韧不拔的生命力与韧性？

**弗莱明：**我想还是杜娅的故事最能让我感受到这种力量。所有难民都不得不逃离战火，其中许多人经历了难以想象的生存考验——背井离乡、躲避炮火、穿越危机四伏的边境。但杜娅的故事远不止于此：她不仅亲历了一场可怕战争的爆发，随家人仓皇出逃，还踏上了一段更为艰险的旅程。无数难民都曾冒险穿越地中海，而这条航线已经吞噬了成千上万条生命。

然而，那种对拥有更好生活的渴望——不仅是逃离苦难、求得生存，更是为了接受教育、获得工作、真正活出人生——如此强烈，以至于许多难民甘愿冒死踏上旅程，只为寻找一个更美好的归宿。

杜娅正是如此。遗憾的是，那趟旅程成为了命运的审判——与她同船的约500名乘客，包括她挚爱的未婚夫，最终都沉入海底。但她的故事之所以震撼人心，不仅在于她奇迹般活了下来：在地中海上，仅靠一个儿童游泳圈漂浮了四天四夜；更在于她甚至还救起了一名陌生的女婴。

**韩桦：**这确实非常动人，她也非常幸运。

**弗莱明：**这不只是运气。我认为这正是故事的关键——那是她坚定的意志和信仰的力量。她信教，但更重要的是，她当时并不是为了自己，而是为了救那个小女孩的命。

**韩桦：**没错。那么和2017年这本书刚出版时相比，如今全球难民状况出现了哪些新变化？比如乌克兰、加沙、苏丹、伊朗这些地方的冲突带来了什么影响？

**弗莱明：**我很希望能带来一些好消息，但很遗憾，情况在不断恶化。目前全球的难民数量已经翻了一番。联合国难民署（UNHCR）本周刚刚公布的数据显示，全球已有1.22亿人被迫离开家园。不过唯一值得欣慰的是，有200万叙利亚难民已经返回家园。叙利亚的政权更迭，让他们在15年后终于感觉他们可以安全地回家。

这其实就是我们期望难民能得到的结局。但问题在于，那些迫使他们逃离家园的战争年复一年地持续，始终得不到解决。每一个难民最深的愿望就是能够安全、有尊严地回到家乡，重新开始生活。但遗憾的是，这种愿望往往难以实现，因为战火依旧未熄。

**韩桦：**谢谢你分享叙利亚难民问题中的一线希望。你认为，解决难民危机的最终途径，是让难民能够回到自己的家乡吗？

**弗莱明：**没错。在联合国难民署，我们认为有多种解决方案，但最理想的还是难民能够安全返回家园——前提是当地已恢复安全并具备基本生活条件。以叙利亚为例，局势依旧艰难：基础设施严重损毁，贫困蔓延，公共服务几乎瘫痪。因此，叙利亚亟需大规模援助来重建家园，为百万滞留海外的难民和境内流离失所者创造返乡条件。当然，还有其他途径，例如“第三国安置”计划：这是一个非常有意义的项目，由全球一些国家共同分担接收难民的责任。因为大多数难民都集中在战乱国家的邻国，而这些邻国本身资源就非常有限……

比如肯尼亚就接收了来自多个国家的大量难民。第三国安置计划会优先考虑那些特别脆弱的群体，比如儿童、失去双亲的青少年、单亲家庭等。经过甄别后，这些难民将被第三国接收。他们会乘坐飞机前往那个国家，在那里会有一个社区接待他们，帮助他们重新开始新的生活。

第三种方案是本地融合。如果接收国条件允许，会允许部分难民长期居留并逐步融入社会。例如杜娅一家——包括她救下的女婴——现已在瑞典获得公民身份，可以合法工作、接受教育，以瑞典人的身份开启新生活。这也是一种可行的解决路径。

**韩桦：**是的。但你们具体如何为难民区分这些解决方案？又如何帮助他们找到最适合自己的选择？

**弗莱明：**我想对大多数难民来说，只要有一条出路，他们其实都会感到欣慰。问题在于能够安置他们的名额实在太少了，愿意让难民真正融入当地社会的国家也不够多。

所以，联合国难民署的一项重要工作就是向各国政府呼吁并推动这些解决方案。而我所代表的联合国，也一直在努力推动和平的实现。

**韩桦：**当然，你刚刚提到了一个关键词，那就是“对人本身的投资”。不管采取哪种解决方案，真正投资于人才是关键所在。在离开联合国难民署之后，你成为了联合国主管全球传播事务的副秘书长。那么在当今这个媒体疲劳、叙事割裂的时代，公众要如何持续关注难民危机呢？而在你现在的新岗位上，你又是如何在信息割裂的当下推动沟通、弥合分歧的呢？

**弗莱明：**这确实不容易，因为我们如今身处数字时代，信息来源五花八门，尤其是网络上。而且大多数人现在的时间几乎都花在社交媒体上了。

遗憾的是，社交媒体上并非所有信息都真实可靠，其中充斥着大量虚假、不实、误导性的内容，甚至包含着仇恨言论。社交媒体的算法倾向于推送那些能够“引战”的内容，而联合国传播的内容聚焦事实，不以制造愤怒为目的。我们致力于通过传递内容来启发大众，唤起人们的关注，同时提供切实可行的参与方式，鼓励大家行动起来。目前，仅联合国总部的社交媒体账号就拥有超过 7000 万关注者，各下属机构的关注量也非常可观。我们重视与传统媒体的合作，同时也积极运营自有平台，如多语种的 “联合国新闻”。我们其实是在打一场信息战，努力让真实、可信且富有温度的内容在信息洪流中被大众看见、传播。为此，我们采取各种方式触达受众，不仅运用数据，更通过一个个生动真实的故事引发共鸣。

当地时间6月13日，联合国安理会就伊朗与以色列冲突召开紧急会议现场。 联合国官网

**韩桦：**你确实很擅长讲故事，尤其是那些个人的故事，非常打动人心。没错，如今越来越多的人通过社交媒体获取各类信息，这一现象在年轻人中尤为明显。数据显示，Z世代中有65%的人是通过社交媒体，比如TikTok、短视频等来获取信息的。

针对Z世代及未来一代的年轻人，除了社交媒体外，您是否有更具针对性的传播策略？尤其是在 AI 生成内容日益增多的当下，你们有没有什么特别为青年群体设计的计划？

**弗莱明：**我们目前采取的一项重要举措是确保自身在主流平台保持活跃，同时与各类有影响力的创作者展开合作。这些合作者未必是领域的专家。例如，我们发起了一个名为“真相计划”的项目，与全球范围内愿意参与的网红、博主等创作者携手合作。我们会为他们提供关于气候变化的核心信息，尤其是围绕可再生能源转型这一议题，这是我们当前重点推进的全球宣传方向。我们向他们提供真实准确的资料，并鼓励他们用自己的语言风格和表达形式进行创作，只要确保信息准确无误，我们就会给予支持。实践证明，这种方式非常有效。这些创作者作为各自社群中的“可信传播者”，通过本土化的叙事方式，将我们的信息传递给更广泛的群体，从而有效拓展了传播的边界。

**韩桦：**你是说，你们会先审核这些人，然后选择愿意合作的影响者？他们会跟你们密切合作吗？

**弗莱明：**是的。而且我们本身和TikTok就是合作伙伴。他们会帮我们增加这些创作者的账号曝光度、扩大触达范围。这种合作模式非常成功，也是一种非常有效的方式，让我们能够接触到平时根本无法触及的群体。对于我们这样一个总部位于纽约的机构来说，这一点尤为重要。

**韩桦：**明白了。但你们是怎么驱动这些人，怎么激励他们参与的呢？

**弗莱明：**他们本身就非常有热情。

**韩桦：**为什么呢？

**弗莱明：**有很多人都希望能为联合国工作。

**韩桦：**这就是工作的基础。

**弗莱明：**这个世界上其实有很多人渴望和平，渴望气候行动，渴望平等，只是他们不知道该如何参与进来。而我们的挑战在于，我们没有足够的能力去动员所有那些愿意参与的人。但这并不是一个无法解决的问题。因为在这个世界上、互联网上有无数心怀善意的人，他们真心渴望获得真实、富有启发性的信息。只是很遗憾，有时候那些最喧嚣、最充满仇恨的声音反而更容易被听到，而我们绝不能让这种情况成为常态。

**韩桦：**是的，这可能也反映出人类内心深处的某种本能，对仇恨的反应往往比对希望的反应更强烈，从而让仇恨的信息更容易占据上风。所以我们确实需要采取一些措施来对抗这种倾向。我很喜欢你们通过有影响力的人来吸引和激励公众参与的做法。

在北京对话，我们其实也在做类似的事情，我们尝试吸引中国有影响力的人士，以及一些国际知名的意见领袖，让他们更多地了解中国、了解中国的政策，甚至是一些关于外交政策的不同声音和观点。这种方式确实非常有趣，也非常有效——就像你说的，能够真正让那些“想参与的人参与进来”。毕竟现在几乎所有人都在网上，对吧？只要方法得当，网络其实是一个巨大的机会场，可以让更多人建立真实的连接、增进对彼此的理解。

当地时间6月18日，在加沙城希法医院，亲属们为前一天在寻求食物援助时被以色列炮火打死的巴勒斯坦人举行葬礼。 视觉中国

**弗莱明：**按照传统，联合国会与一些知名明星合作，他们本身具有巨大的影响力。但我们也发现，在某些议题上，他们并不总是我们所需要的“可信传播者”，这一点在新冠疫情期间体现得尤为明显。当时普通人真正愿意听从的，是那些能用他们熟悉的语言讲话的医生和科学家。因此，在疫情期间，我们开始与多个国家的医生合作，培训他们使用TikTok和其他社交媒体，并向他们提供世界卫生组织的权威信息。这些医生用自己的方式向本地社区传播知识，很快就积累了大量关注，甚至被邀请上国家电视台接受采访。所以，这件事真正让我们意识到：如果你想推动世界发生改变，首先要清楚你想影响的是谁，然后找到真正能够影响这些人群的人。这些人，就是你对外沟通中最关键的影响力杠杆。

**韩桦：**我认为这已经不仅仅是一线希望，而是一个非常有前景的方向。那么，在你们推动与创作者合作的过程中，有没有设定一些优先级呢？你提到了气候变化，也提到了公共卫生，这些都是全球性的议题。那么对于像地缘政治、大国竞争这样更复杂、更敏感的问题，你们有没有相应的策略或优先处理的方向呢？

**弗莱明：**我们当然每天都被世界各地的危机所牵动，这些战争不仅造成了巨大的人道主义苦难，也不断加剧全球紧张局势。我本人在纽约工作，亲眼见证了这一切在联合国安理会和联合国大会的“舞台”上如何上演。我的团队负责报道所有这些重要的辩论和讨论。我们会以一种非常直接、新闻导向的方式向公众传达信息，同时也会对这些会议进行全程直播，让公众能够“走进”联合国的现场，亲眼见证正在发生的一切。换句话说，我们提供的是透明度，是事实，是对现实的全面呈现。当然，秘书长的讲话对我们来说至关重要。他通常会在这些场合发声，而我们的工作就是确保他的声音能够用多种语言传递到世界各地。他的讲话内容往往是在呼吁停火、和平、对话，以及通过政治手段解决冲突，而不是诉诸于战场的解决方式。

**韩桦：**没错，你们本质上是提供了一个平台，让不同的声音都有机会被听见，而且是说出事实。

**弗莱明：**在联合国，我们的工作围绕三个支柱展开：和平与安全、人道主义事务以及可持续发展。关于和平与安全的讨论大多在纽约进行，成员国是主要参与者，他们在这里表达各自的立场。然而，我认为通过视频报道和现场直播，让公众“走进联合国”，看到真实的讨论场景，是一件非常有意义的事情。这样，人们不仅可以看到不同国家在同一问题上的立场差异，更能看到联合国本身的价值所在。因为当今世界需要全球合作和多边主义来解决问题。许多重大议题，如战争、疫情、气候变化等，无法靠任何一个国家单打独斗来解决。它们影响的是所有人类，因此必须依靠全球性的解决方案，而这正是联合国存在的意义。

**韩桦：**是的，联合国仍然是一个极其重要的世界舞台，正如你提到的，是各方行动者发声和互动的地方。但确实，有些国家或代表带来的是基于事实的陈述，而有些则更多是“表演”，他们说的是他们“所认为”的事实。那你们有没有什么机制来区分这两者？还是说，你们只是提供这个平台，而不对内容做任何判断？

**弗莱明：**当发言的是联合国会员国时，我们不会进行任何筛选或判断——我们只是中立地报道他们所说的话，让公众自己去判断。

当然，当秘书长发表发言时，他会表达立场、作出判断，这些内容也为我们提供了方向。但总体来说，联合国这个舞台的核心价值之一，就是为所有国家提供发声的机会。无论你是大国还是小国，在联合国大会上你都有发言权，而且最重要的是，每个国家只有一票。

**韩桦：**这非常重要。从伊以冲突一开始，我就注意到，当我想寻找一些真实的新闻或事实时，我会去联合国的网站。我发现，这两个国家的代表都有发声的机会，都能召开新闻发布会，向他们希望触达的媒体和受众传达自己的声音。这一点对联合国来说至关重要——持续扮演一个平衡、公正的平台角色。

但回顾过去几十年的叙事，甚至可以说自联合国成立至今这80年来，我们不得不承认全球叙事主要由西方媒体主导，或者说是西方在塑造叙事上占据主导地位。然而，如今全球南方国家正在快速崛起，一个多极化的世界正在形成。那么，从您的专业角度来看，全球南方国家该如何借助更具发展性、更成熟的叙事能力，将自己的声音传递给更广泛的国际受众呢？

5月12日，中共中央政治局委员、外交部长王毅在京集体会见来华出席中拉论坛第四届部长级会议的加勒比建交国外长及代表。 中国外交部网站

**弗莱明：**我认为现在确实有很多机会。这也是数字媒体和社交媒体带来的积极一面。如今，许多原本没有机会被听见的声音，无论是那些从未有过发声渠道的国家，还是长期被边缘化的个人，现在都可以找到自己的发声渠道。当然，要在信息爆炸的时代脱颖而出仍然不容易，竞争依然激烈。但相比过去，现在确实有了更多传播的渠道。在联合国传播部门，我们始终坚信多语种的价值。因此，我们不仅用联合国的六种官方语言进行报道，其中就包括中文，我们还在全球设有59个信息中心，将联合国正在发生的事情传递给更广泛的受众。同时，我们也会通过这些渠道，把世界各地正在发生的重要事件带到全球平台上。尤其是对非洲，经常会有很多刻板印象。人们往往想当然地认为非洲到处是战乱和贫穷，但实际上，那里有非常多的创新，有很多令人振奋的故事，还有很多本土化的解决方案，这些完全可以推广到全球。

**韩桦：**是的，联合国确实发挥着非常重要的作用。根据AI的语言数据统计，目前全球大约85%的信息处理只覆盖六种基本语言。而联合国的工作显然远不止于此。

**弗莱明：**当然。我们一直在倡导人工智能的公平使用，这也是联合国秘书长和整个联合国极为关注的问题。去年9月，我们通过了《全球数字契约》（Global Digital Compact），其中提出建立类似“气候变化政府间专门委员会（IPCC）”的机制。IPCC的作用是让全球共享气候变化方面的科研成果和解决方案。我们希望在人工智能领域也能实现类似的目标：让每个国家都能平等地获得人工智能所带来的发展机遇，用它来解决问题，推动本国的发展。

这正是联合国所扮演的一个重要角色：我们代表那些在技术与资源方面相对薄弱的国家，为他们争取平等获取先进科学技术的机会，因为这些技术同样能够极大地改善他们人民的生活。

**韩桦：**太好了，这正是让所有参与者站在更公平舞台上的一种努力。你刚才提到非洲的创新与发展，我非常认同，也想特别回应一下。最近，中国举办了与非洲国家的会议，共有53个非洲国家参与，并签署了一项新的自由贸易协定，其中包括对非洲最不发达国家的产品实施免关税进口。这非常有意义，它不仅体现了中国对非洲国家的开放与合作态度，也说明非洲确实有许多极具潜力和价值的产品——无论是工业制品，还是文化创意产品。中国民众也越来越希望能够与非洲的这些项目有更多直接的接触与合作机会。

**弗莱明：**非洲有美味的咖啡。

**韩桦：**是的。

**弗莱明：**非洲不仅有美丽的花朵，更有许多创新。我记得之前在肯尼亚的时候，他们就已经有了M-Pesa（移动支付系统），那时候很多其他国家都还没有类似的系统。人们可以通过它进行小额转账，支付小费、缴纳税款等，非常便捷。这种创新真的很了不起，他们的银行也非常先进。

**韩桦：**他们的电子支付其实是非常发达的，对吧？

**弗莱明：**是的，而且走在全世界的前面。而且肯尼亚的能源大部分都来自可再生能源，但很多人并不知道这一点。其实，非洲许多国家找到的解决方案完全可以被转化并适用于其他地区。

**韩桦：**是的，我有一个案例想跟你分享，也想听听你的看法。

我之前和一位非常有名的伊朗教授谈到全球南方国家的发展以及其他相关议题时，他提到：“我了解到的中国的大部分信息，还是来自西方媒体。” 这说明，即便全球南方国家之间希望发展友好关系、加强交流合作，但他们获取彼此信息的渠道，往往仍然是所谓的“西方媒体”。那么，面对这种现实，我们该如何应对？怎样才能让信息传播的场域更加公平呢？

**弗莱明：**你提到的这一点很有意思。因为我去非洲出差的时候，发现那里的中国记者反而比西方记者还多。这是因为现在传统的“外派记者制度”正在经历一场危机——无论是我所在的国家，还是欧洲，都很难派出足够多的驻外记者了。而我很惊讶地看到，尤其是中国的新闻机构，在非洲各地都有常驻记者，持续进行报道。

但在全球范围内，我们正面临“公共利益媒体”的危机。很多重要的故事根本没有被讲述出来。因为在社交媒体崛起之后，传统独立媒体赖以生存的商业模式几乎崩塌了。

我不太了解中国的情况，但在许多其他国家，媒体大多依赖广告收入来维持运营。随着内容分发渠道逐渐转向Facebook等社交平台，媒体的收入开始大幅减少。因为这些平台掌握了流量和广告投放的主导权，而媒体自身却难以从中获得足够的收益。这种变化给媒体的生存带来了巨大挑战。在这种情况下，最先被削减的往往是关于外国事务的深度报道。

2024年6月，联合国秘书长古特雷斯在记者会上奉劝会员国不要宣传虚假信息，多家媒体：是在不点名地“敲打”以色列 视频截图

同时，很多国家本身也缺乏能够持续产生高质量新闻的土壤。因此，去年6月，联合国发布了《全球信息完整性原则》（UN Global Principles on Information Integrity）。其中，我们提出了一系列建议，旨在帮助各国建立健康的信息生态系统。其中一个核心建议是：在每个国家都要加强对自由和独立媒体的支持。同时，我们也针对科技平台和广告商提出了多项建议。因为我们坚信，一个真正健康的社会必须建立在“知情的公众”之上——事实必须优先于谎言，而要做到这一点，就必须重建公众对信息的信任。唯有如此，我们才能在推动全球和平、可持续发展、应对气候变化等议题时凝聚共识，让这个世界真正变得更美好。

**韩桦：**好的，最后一个问题：关于你提到的这个大胆的构想。如果要简要总结一下，面对这个体系性问题，结构性变革应该从哪几个核心方向入手？能否请你快速概括一下？

**弗莱明：**我们在《联合国全球信息完整性原则》中提出了一系列建议，旨在构建一个健康的信息生态系统——让人们能够自由表达观点，而不必担心被攻击或恶意中伤。但与此同时，必须对有害信息进行更有效的管理和调控，尤其是非法内容。此外，还有一些虽不违法但极具伤害性的内容，我们也认为需要加强适度监管。我们呼吁社交媒体平台切实履行它们自己制定的服务条款。同时，我们也呼吁广告商确保自己的广告不会无意中助长虚假信息的传播。当前的广告环境非常复杂，很多广告主甚至不知道自己的广告最终会出现在什么样的内容旁边，结果可能反而助推了有害信息的扩散。如果我们能够从这个环节切断虚假信息的资金来源，这将是迈向健康信息生态非常关键的一步。

此外，我们希望独立媒体能够更具活力和可持续性。我们呼吁各国政府发挥自身作用，为本国社会营造一个健康的信息环境。最后，关于用户，我们并不想把所有责任都推到他们身上，但用户确实需要接受教育，学会在这个复杂的信息空间中辨别真假、理性判断。媒体素养教育应该在学校中开展，帮助孩子们从小培养这方面的能力。同时，我们也不能忽视老年群体，他们中有许多人花大量时间在社交媒体上，却不知道如何识别虚假信息，尤其是在人工智能时代，真假内容的界限越来越模糊。因此，我们需要加强对用户的教育，帮助他们无论年龄大小，都能掌握基本的信息识别能力，从而在这个数字时代更安全、更理性地获取和使用信息。

**韩桦：**否则，就会像你之前提到的那样，出现“信息腐烂”（spring rot）的问题，对吧？所以我认为，这种教育应该是一种“终身学习”，而不仅仅是学校里的阶段性课程。学校教育当然是一个很好的起点，就像你现在这样经常跟学生和年轻人分享，是非常有意义的。但更重要的是，这种信息素养教育应该贯穿人的一生，不断更新、不断提升。在这一点上，我也特别鼓励你多去不同的地方走一走。我相信你是喜欢旅行的人，对吧？

**弗莱明：**我真希望自己能一直专注于这件事，因为在北京的经历实在太令人振奋了。我刚刚在北京八十中学和一群非常出色的学生交流，他们让我印象深刻。还有北京书展，以及在Page One书店举办的世界难民日活动，那里的观众也让我非常感动。他们充满好奇心，愿意倾听、思考，并且深刻理解书籍的价值。书籍是跨越时间的存在，它不仅承载着知识，更能拓展我们的想象力，丰富我们的情感和同理心。这次的北京之行，让我更加坚信：人与人之间的理解和连接，真的可以从一本书、一次对话开始。

**韩桦：**我想再提一个角度，那就是你作为一名在联合国工作的人士，同时也是一位作家的这种双重身份。这种平衡的视角，再加上通过个人故事来讲述宏大议题的方式，可能是一种非常有效的传播手段。通过这种方式，你可以触达你想影响的受众，甚至扩大那些能够通过这些个人故事产生共鸣的受众群体。这或许可以成为媒体机构未来发展的一个亮点。

例如，当我们支持北京对话的专家们参加国际论坛，或者在主流媒体平台上发表观点时，我们总是鼓励他们在这些关于大国博弈、国际议程的宏大讨论中，融入一些个人经历或故事。因为这些个人的经历非常独特，往往能打动人心，传递出更具温度、更有说服力的信息。这正是叙事的力量，也是对话的希望所在。

**弗莱明：**这确实很明智，而且非常重要。公众演讲——你如何表达、如何呈现自己，以及你说了什么——这些能力在现实中常常被低估，也没有足够的重视和教学。许多对我们的世界和社会极为重要的人，比如外交官、官员、医生，他们往往并没有接受过真正有效的公众表达训练。

**韩桦：**我以为美国人会从小在学校里接受这方面的训练。

**弗莱明：**我觉得现在确实比以前更加重视了，因为大家逐渐认识到，无论从事什么职业，沟通能力都是至关重要的。比如我曾经就读的波士顿大学，当时我学的是新闻专业。现在，学校推出了一个跨学科项目，联合了全球健康学院、工程学院和传播学院。通过这种合作，学生们能够真正理解当今这个信息主导的世界。比如，从事公共健康的人也需要学习如何有力地沟通，才能真正说服公众、推动他们改变；工程专业的学生在研究数字技术的同时，也需要了解这些技术如何在传播中发挥作用；而新闻与传播学院则专注于思考：在这个时代，我们到底该如何有效触达公众。这是一种跨界协同的教育模式，其目的不仅是培养专业技能，更是培养“将专业语言转化为人类语言”的能力。

这种变化很好，只是我觉得这种转变的速度还是太慢了——数字时代发展得太快，而我们的教育和沟通方式却没有及时跟上。但现在人们又开始回归到“倾听”的价值上来。播客就是一个很好的例子，它非常受欢迎。过去有一种“传统智慧”认为年轻人只愿意看30秒的视频，其实不然。他们现在愿意听一小时、甚至两小时的播客。只要你是一个会讲故事的人，或者像你一样是一个优秀的对谈者，你就能够真正触达人们的内心，建立深度连接。

**韩桦：**是的，正如你所说，我真心希望我们能举办一些教育型的研讨会之类的活动，为我们的专家们提供更多的沟通技巧培训。就像你提到的，无论一个人从事什么职业，沟通能力都极为重要，它可能是打动人心、实现目标或达成愿景的最关键因素。非常感谢你今天的分享！

**弗莱明：**这次交流真的非常有意思。 

原文如下：

Han Hua: So let’s start from your book first. In your book, you tell the story of Doaa Al Zamel. Why did you choose a personal narrative rather than some data or policies to portray the refugee crisis?

Melissa Fleming: When you talk about refugees, you’re talking about millions of people. And those are numbers. Numbers don’t move people, especially when they’re big. In fact, according to behavioral science, big numbers can actually have the opposite effect. They can actually invoke fear. What we want is for refugees to be understood and welcomed， so the way to reach people’s hearts is through individual stories. I’ve learned that through behavioral science and many studies. And realy I’ve proved it by telling the story of Doaa Al Zamel, which is actually a universal story. Every refugee could find themselves in this story.

Han Hua: Very good. But among the refugee stories, you must have encountered so many refugee personal stories. What moment gave you the strongest sense of humanities resilience?

Melissa Fleming: I think it is the story of Doaa. All refugees have to flee war. Some of them have incredible stories of survival, just getting out of their hometowns, fleeing their homes, and crossing dangerous borders. But Doaa’s story is not only about witnessing the beginning of an awful war and having to flee it with her family, but also about taking another dangerous journey, which is something that many refugees do, a dangerous journey that thousands of refugees have already died in the Mediterranean Sea.

And yet, that drive to have something better, have something beyond just limbo and survival—to be able to pursue an education, to work and have a job—is so powerful that many refugees risk their lives on those journeys in the hope of reaching a better place.

That’s what Doaa did. And unfortunately, it was a fateful journey. Out of 500 fellow passengers, including the love of her life, her fiancé, drowned. But the remarkable thing about her story is that she survived. Not only did she survive four days and four nights on the Mediterranean Sea, clinging to just a child’s floating ring, but she also managed to save a baby girl.

Han Hua: Yeah, this is touching and she was lucky to survive.

Melissa Fleming: It was more than lucky. I think that’s part of the story. It was a determination to save that life and it was faith. She’s religious, so faith, but also really mostly, it wasn’t even really to save herself. It was to save that little baby girl’s life.

Han Hua: That’s right. So compared to when the book was published back in 2017, what are the new developments in the global refugees’ situation like the impact of conflicts happening these days? The Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan, Iran?

Melissa Fleming: I wish I had good news to tell you, but unfortunately, things have just compounded and gotten worse. We have double the number of refugees today. People forced to flee UNHCR the UN Refugee Agency just announced this week that there are 122 million people who’ve been forced from their home. There is one silver lining there, one piece of good news and is that 2 million Syrian refugees returned home because of the change of government, because they felt finally, after 15 years, they felt safe to return.

So this is what we want for refugees. But the problem is the wars that push so many people out of their homes. The wars is not being resolved at year after year after year, every refugee, all they want is to be able to return home in safety and in dignity and to restart their lives. And unfortunately, this is just not possible because the wars rage on.

Han Hua: Thanks for sharing the silver lining of the refugee’s problem with Syria. You think the end of this refugee crisis would be to have the refugees going back to their hometown?

Melissa Fleming: It is. At UNHCR, we say that there are solutions that, of course, the best solution is that the refugees could return home if their home is safe. And if there are the conditions to return home. In Syria, it’s still very difficult. There’s so much destruction. And also, there is a lot of poverty, and there are very few services. So Syria needs a lot of help to rebuild, reconstruct, and to provide the conditions for the return of so many people. There are still millions and millions of Syrians outside of the country and also displaced within the country. So we need to invest in Syria. But there are other solutions too, including resettlement. This is a wonderful program where countries around the world agree to share the burden. Because most refugees are in neighboring countries and very often, those countries don’t have very many means thinking about…

Kenya, for example, that has so many refugees from multiple different countries. The resettlement program would identify refugees who are particularly vulnerable children, young people who have traveled alone, who don’t have any parents anymore, single headed families. These can be then vetted. Third countries will then resettle them. They’ll board an airplane, they’ll arrive in that country. There’ll be a community that will welcome them and help them to restart their lives there.

The third solution is local integration. And if the country is able, they will allow some refugees. For example, Doaa and her family in Sweden. They’re in Sweden now, and also the baby that she saved. They are now Swedish citizens. They are permitted to work, to go to school, and to restart their lives as swedes. So that’s also a solution.

Han Hua: Yes. But how do you distinguish these different solutions for these refugees? How do you help them to figure out which is the best option for them?

Melissa Fleming: I think most of them would be happy for any of those options. The problem is that there are not enough spaces for resettlement. There are not enough countries who are willing to allow refugees to integrate locally. They may say, “Okay, you can be here, but temporarily until it’s safe enough for you to return.” And they’re usually in a refugee camp.

So one of the things that UNHCR is to advocate with the governments for these kinds of solutions. And at the United Nations, which I represent, we try to push for peace.

Han Hua: Of course, yes. You mentioned the key word, investment into people. Like whatever the solutions might be, investment into people directly is the key solution. After UNHCR, you move to be the under the secretary of UN in charge of taking care of the global communications. So, today’s media world or the narrative world is rather fatigued or divided. So how can the public remain engaged with this refugee crisis first? And in your new role and capacity, how to promote today’s information divides to bridge the gap?

Melissa Fleming: It’s not easy because we are now in the digital age where there are all kinds of sources of information, as we know, online and where most people spend their time on social media.

And unfortunately, not all the information is good information on social media. You have a lot of false information, you have fake information, you have disinformation, you have hateful information. And the algorithms are trained to promote the content that creates and generates the most outrage. And at the UN, our content doesn’t generate outrage because it’s facts. It’s what we try to do, though, is inspire. With our content, we inform, we try to move people to care, but also give them ways to get involved and to act. We do have over 70 million followers on our social media, just on the UN council, on the individual agencies have more. We do a lot of traditional media engagement as well. It’s still very important. And we run our own platforms. We have UN news in multiple languages, so we tried. It’s kind of like a battle of the information, a battlefield to be elevated and to get into people’s feeds. We do everything that we can to try to reach people, and not just with statistics and numbers, but also with stories.

Han Hua: You are really good at that, telling especially the personal stories. You are right. Then many people, more people are getting the information, whatever it is from the social media. The statistics shows that for generation Z, 65% of the information they secured are from social media, TikTok, short views…

Do you have any targeted response plan towards this generation and the generation for the future beyond the social media? Because we have this all ai generated content, do you have any specific plan for the youths?

Melissa Fleming: One of the things that we do is that we make sure that we are on those platforms ourselves and we work with influencers. And they’re not necessarily experts. Like, for example, we have an initiative called Verified where we work with influences around the world who want to work with us. And we provide them with information on climate change, mostly around transition to renewable energy, which is our big campaign push. And we give them the facts, and then we just say “go create. And you speak in your language, you use whatever style you have, and we’ll just make sure you’re accurate.” This is proven to be extremely effective. There’s their trusted messengers in their communities. And that extends our reach.

Han Hua: You mean, you verify them first to just try to have these kinds of influencers? Like they work closely with you?

Melissa Fleming: Yes. And Tik Tok is a partner. And they help us to elevate those influencers’ accounts and their reach. So it’s a great partnership and it’s a very good method to reach out to communities that we would never reach as an institution sitting in New York.

Han Hua: Right. But how to drive them? How to motivate them?

Melissa Fleming: They’re so motivated.

Han Hua: Why?

Melissa Fleming: We have so many people who want to work with the UN. That’s the thing.

Han Hua: That’s the foundation.

Melissa Fleming: There are more people in this world who want peace, who want climate action, who want equality. They just don’t know how to get involved. So our challenge is that we don’t have the capacity to engage enough people who want to be engaged. But that is not a problem. There are so many good people in this world who are on the internet. And there are so many people who do want to be genuinely informed and inspired. It’s just, unfortunately, sometimes the loudest and the most hateful voices prevail, and we can’t let that happen.

Han Hua: Yeah, this might be some deep down in a human’s basic instinct of this hate, to let the hateful messages prevail. So we need to do something to counter that. I like the initiative of involving and engaging of the influences.

At Beijing Club for International Dialogue, we actually are doing something similar to engage the Chinese influences as well as some world-famous influencers to let them know more about China and about China’s policies or opinions, even different opinions towards the foreign policies, for example. Very interesting and very effective in, just like you said, to engage people who want to be engaged. Because virtually everybody is on the internet nowadays, right?

Melissa Fleming: Traditionally the UN works with celebrities who are huge influencers. But we found that on some issues, yeah, they’re not the trusted messengers that we need. That was particularly true during COVID-19. What ordinary people listen to were doctors and scientists who’s spoken their language. So we worked also during COVID-19 with doctors in multiple countries. And we trained them on TikTok and other social media, and gave them also the facts from WHO. And they spoke to their communities and got huge followings and then were asked to be interviewed on the national television. So it is really important to look at what you are trying to change in the world, and then who influences those people. And that’s going to be your influential communications arm into those members of the public.

Han Hua: I think this is more than a silver lining. This is really promising. So do you have any priorities of this engage into influences? You mentioned the climate change, you mentioned the health care, which are really in the universal issues. But how about the geopolitical tensions, major power competitions?

Melissa Fleming: We obviously are consumed by the crises in our world, the wars that are causing so much human suffering, but also so much tension. And I’m based in New York, so I’ve seen this in the theater of the security council in the general assembly. My team is responsible for covering all of those debates. So people can and—in a way, just a very straightforward news oriented way, we also provide the live broadcast feed of all of these deliberations so that people can enter into the UN theater and see for themselves. So we provide transparency. We provide information about what is happening. Obviously, the speeches of the Secretary General are extremely important for us to convey. He’s delivering them there, but we also make sure that they reach people around the world in multiple languages. And they’re often calling for cease fires or peace or talks or political solutions rather than solutions on the battlefield.

Han Hua: So basically, you’re providing a platform where different voices can have the opportunity to speak out, right? To speak out the facts, I think.

Melissa Fleming: In the UN, we work on three pillars: peace and security, humanitarian and development, and the peace and security. A lot of those debates are happening in New York, and that’s where the member states are the main actors. And they’re delivering their positions. But I think what people can see by showing what is happening to the world, letting people inside through video coverage and live streaming, is that they can see the different positions of the different actors. And see also, though that the United Nations is there, because what we need global cooperation and multilateral solutions for our world’s problems. It’s very difficult to solve them bilaterally for all issues, wars, pandemic, climate, change. They affect everyone, so they need a global solution, and that’s what’s happening inside the UN.

Han Hua: Yes. The UN remains still as very important world stage for these actors, you mentioned. But some actors bring to the stage the facts, and some are bringing to the stage only they are acting, the facts in their perception. Do you have any mechanism to distinguish them or you just provide?

Melissa Fleming: No, when it’s a member state speaking, we just let people judge themselves and we report what is being said in a very impartial manner.

Now, when the Secretary General gives his speech, he often makes judgments or issues opinions, and that’s what guides us. But I think it is the stage where member states have the opportunity to speak. And in the general assembly, no matter how big you are, no matter how small you are, you have a voice, and you have one vote, only one vote.

Han Hua: That’s very important. From the very beginning of the crisis between Israel and Iran, I noticed that when I wanted to look for some real news or facts, I turned to your website, I found that both representative from both countries had the opportunity to speak out, to host the press conference to the media, to the audience they want to reach. So this is very important for the un to continue this balanced role.

But down the road, the narratives in the past decades or almost since the establishment of Yuan for 80 years is that we have to confess that is mostly controlled by the western media, all by the western capabilities to shape the narrative. There is the surge of Global South and the multipolar world is taking shape. So how the Global South countries reach the larger audience through a more evolving or more sophisticated narrative capabilities from your expertise?

Melissa Fleming: I think there are a lot of possibilities now. This is the good side of digital media and social media. I think there are many more voices who can be heard, whether it’s countries that have never had that chance, or it’s also individuals who have been marginalized. They can now find a voice. Now, it’s difficult to compete. But there are, I think, now many channels. Our goal at the UN in our Communications Department, because we believe in the value, as we say, of multilingualism, that we not only report in the six official languages, one of which is Chinese of the UN, but we have 59 information centers around the world, where we can also extend what’s happening at the UN to these populations. But conversely, we can report about what is happening in these countries to a global platform. It’s very often, especially in Africa, there are very many stereotypes. People just assume Africa is all war torn and poor. There is so much innovation. There’s so much to be inspired by. And there are so many solutions that are being found locally to problems that could be transferred globally. And we try to bring these examples out into the world.

Han Hua: Yeah. So the UN is playing definitely a very important role. Because from the AI calculation states that only 85 % of the information, they only work on six basic languages. And you are doing more than that.

Melissa Fleming: Certainly. We are advocating for AI actors. This is a huge concern of the Secretary General and the UN. And we just adopted last September a global digital compact. And it calls for the creation of something like the IPCC that is for climate change. That equalizes the research around climate change and climate solutions to the world. And this is what we endeavor. Every country should be able to access the AI possibilities for solutions and for expanding development in their countries.

So this is one of the roles that the UN plays. We advocate on behalf of the countries that don’t have as much power to be able to access the same kind of technologies and science that can lift their people as well.

Han Hua: Great. Try to make the playground more even for all the actors. I just want to resonate when you mention about the Africa’s innovation and development. Most recently, China held this conference for African countries, 53, all of them, and signed this new agreement of the free trade with even the least developed countries in Africa, meaning that the African products can be imported into China tax free. So it means that Africa do have some very interesting, productive products, be it like the industrial products or some cultural products. Chinese people want to have more direct engagement with these projects.

Melissa Fleming: Delicious coffee.

Han Hua: Exactly.

Melissa Fleming: Beautiful flowers. But also many innovations. I remember being in Kenya and way before anyone was doing this, they have this in M-Pesa where you can transfer small amounts of money to each other, people paying the tips, the taxes. It was so innovative, their banking system.

Han Hua: Their E-payment is actually very developed, right?

Melissa Fleming: Yes. It was first, before everybody. And Kenya is also mostly powered by renewable energy. And people don’t know that. There are many, I think, solutions that many African countries have found that can be also transferred and adapted to other places of the world.

Han Hua: Yeah. I have a case to share with you and want to seek your idea.

When I talk to a very famous Iranian professor about the Global South development and other issues, he said that, “The most information I got regard China are from the western media.” It’s like even Global South countries want to develop the friendship and ask other relationship, enhance the relationship. But we have to get information from the so-called western media. So how should we tackle this kind of issues to have the information playground more even?

Melissa Fleming: That’s interesting that you say that because when I travel to Africa, I see more Chinese journalists than Western journalists, because there is a crisis of foreign correspondence. There are really not enough foreign correspondents from my country or from Europe. And I’ve been impressed to see how many from especially your news agencies that are reporting from across Africa.

But we have a crisis of media, public interest media globally. I don’t think enough stories are getting out. Because with the rise of social media, we saw a complete crash of the financial model for independent media around the world.

I don’t know about here in China, but because they’re often in advertising model and the distribution had to move to Facebook and other. They soon started losing the revenue. They needed to survive. So it’s been a real struggle. And often what was cut first from it is reporting on foreign countries.

But also in those countries themselves, there’s very little news being generated. So we issued last June UN Global Principles on Information Integrity. And there we advise on how to create a healthy information ecosystem everywhere. And one of the recommendations is to bolster free and independent media in every country. But also there are many recommendations for the platforms and for advertisers. Because we believe we need a public that is informed. We need facts to be prioritized over lies. And we need trust, we need public trust in order to advance in the areas that we are working on to make the world a better place.

Han Hua: Of course. Very interesting. And the last but not least question is about this, your bold idea. Very quick response. When structure change to rebuild this information ecosystem, you mentioned a lot, but to summarize it a little bit.

Melissa Fleming: We have a set of recommendations in the UN Global Principles for Information Integrity. To create an information ecosystem in which people are free to express themselves without fear of being attacked or undermined. But at the same time, where harmful information, especially if it’s illegal, but there are other forms of very hurtful information that there needs to be more moderation of this. And we call on the social media platforms. It just to live up to their own terms of service. We also call on advertisers to make sure that their ads are not funding disinformation. It’s a very difficult, advertising environment where they often don’t even know where their ads get placed. And they inadvertently get placed against harmful content. If we could stop that, we would go a long way.

Again, we want independent media to have more viability. We call on governments also to play their role in making the information space healthy for their societies. And then finally, users. We don’t want to put all the responsibility on users, but we need users to be educated, to understand how to navigate this very difficult information space. It should be taught in schools, media, literacy. But also for our older people who spent a lot of time on social media and don’t know how to navigate, especially in AI age where people can’t distinguish between what is real and what isn’t. We need more education for users.

Han Hua: Otherwise spring rot, as you mentioned before, right? So I think it should be a lifelong continuous education, not only from school. From school is a really good start, just like you are sharing with a lot of school students, young people. But it should be a continuous education. On this, I really encourage you to travel more. I think you like travel, right?

Melissa Fleming: I wish I could do only this because I was so inspired being here in Beijing. I just spoke to an amazing group of students at the school 80. And I was so impressed with them, but also the Beijing Book Fair, World Refugee Day in the Page One Bookstore. And just such an incredible interested audience and people who understand that books are timeless and yet so important for our knowledge, for expanding our imaginations and expanding our hearts.

Han Hua: I think one more approach I want to mention is that your experience being a UN professional as well as a writer. So this kind of balance and through the length of personal story could be a very useful approach to reach the audience that you want to reach or enlarge the audience that can be resonated through this kind of personal stories. So that may be a silver lining for the media outlet to develop.

For example, when we support our Beijing Club Experts to go to the international forums or to publish in the mainstream media platforms, we always want to encourage them to share some personal stories in this global power play, competition, discussion or opinions because it’s very unique.

Melissa Fleming: That’s very smart. It is so important. Public speaking how you deliver and come across and what you say is so underrated. It’s not taught enough. So diplomats or officials, doctors, people who are so important for our world in our society, they’re not trained in effective public speaking.

Han Hua: I thought Americans are trained from their childhood in schools.

Melissa Fleming: I think there’s more now definitely because I think it’s recognized no matter what career. For example, I went to Boston University where I studied journalism, they now have a program together with the department of Global Health and the department of Engineering to work together so that their students understand this modern information world, that the people who are working in public health can also learn strong communication skills to convey. Because they need to persuade the public. The engineers are looking at the digital technology, and of course the college of communication. And the School of Journalism are looking at how do you reach people in this day and age.

So it’s interesting to see the evolution. I think it’s been too slow. The digital age has gone too fast. But there is a return to listening to people. Pod casts are incredibly popular. There was this conventional wisdom that young people only need 30-second videos. No. They listen to 1 hour, 2 hour pod cast. So if you are a good storyteller, if you’re a good interviewer like you, then you can really reach a lot of people and get into their hearts.

Han Hua: Yes. As you mentioned. So on this note, I really hope that we can establish some educational seminar or whatever to equipped my experts with more communication skills. Like you said, whatever the career the people is undergoing, communication is so important, maybe the most crucial parts of the success to reach people’s hearts and to achieve the results or the aim. Thank you so much.

Melissa Fleming: It was really interesting.

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