刘欣访谈实录：独家对话根多活佛 归国藏胞眼中的“西藏和平解放70周年”-谢文·根多、刘欣

刘欣：“活佛”被用来尊称德高望重、修行有成就的藏传佛教的僧侣。活佛转世制度是藏传佛教一种宗教首领的传承方式。根多活佛，您在四岁时就被认定为昌都强巴林寺四大活佛之一，并接受了坐床仪式。从那一刻开始，您的生活发生了什么变化？作为活佛，您的主要职责是什么？

**根多活佛：**本人四岁开始被认定为昌都强巴林寺第六世谢文·根多转世活佛。

一九五六年，根多活佛，四岁

在我小时候，学习文化知识是首要任务，因此我开始广泛学习各种文化课程。

长大后，我参加了藏传佛教的各种仪式。作为一名活佛，普度众生、为众生谋福祉是我的使命。

刘欣：您一九五九年离开西藏时才七岁，当时为什么要离开？

**根多活佛：**在六岁后的那一年里，我担任了昌都解放委员会副主任。虽然我那时候很年幼，但仍坚持参加委员会的各项活动。

例如，在我当选昌都解放委员的一年里，我还参与了西藏自治区筹备委员会的民主改革工作。

当时十到十五名贵族子弟有机会得到政府资助，前往北京念书。

但是我的父母亲朋都不知道实情，他们坚决反对。他们害怕去了内地就再也回不来了，就一辈子离开了家乡。

因为这些误解，我们搬去了印度。

国家对我们关心备至，这是毋庸置疑的。我们同样心存感激。

刘欣：您先去尼泊尔和印度生活了十多年，然后又在瑞士生活了四十年，我知道很难用三言两语来概括这么多年，但您能不能试着简单说说，在国外的那段时间您是什么心情？主要遇到过哪些困难？

**根多活佛：**正如我刚刚说的，我特别享受担任解放委员的那段时光。但因为我父母的误解和顾虑，他们把我带去了尼泊尔和印度。我们那时在异国他乡过得很辛苦。

后来我去了瑞士，那儿的生活条件虽说不错，但我对家乡的思念和祖国的热爱从未动摇过。

刚到国外的时候，我总是通过收听中央人民广播电台和西藏人民广播电台等来缓解思乡之情，关注家乡发展。

后来中国进行了改革开放。一九八四年，我第一次回到家乡，之后去了内地。

刘欣：一九八四年，您三十二岁，第一次回西藏访问。您还记得那次访问的情景吗？给您留下了什么样的印象？

**根多活佛：**回国后，我发现西藏开展了大量基建工程， 如修建道路、修缮寺庙等。人民的生活蒸蒸日上，我感到非常开心和激动。

刘欣：那次访问之后，您在瑞士又待了二十七年才搬回西藏，是在什么时候，又是什么令您做出这个决定？您的家人、瑞士当地朋友和藏胞支持吗？

**根多活佛：**一九八四年首次回国时，中央统战部、阴法唐和帕巴拉·格列朗杰等西藏自治区领导呼吁我回国（定居），他们说，自改革开放以来，国家对海外藏胞的各项帮扶政策非常优越。

当时我非常想回国，但是我的两个孩子刚刚八、九岁，还在上学。我不能抛下他们不管，所以必须要等他们完成学业。

二零一一年，我的两个孩子都二十五岁了，他们顺利毕业，参加工作，能够自力更生了，我也就安心回国了。

刘欣：您刚才提到您回来的原因之一是看到当地政府在佛教场所上的持续投入和对宗教信仰自由的尊重。您能举一些例子吗？您认为外界了解这样的政策吗？如果不了解，原因何在？

**根多活佛：**一些国外媒体一直在批评中国的宗教自由和宗教政策，这是国外反华势力和敌对势力的挑衅和煽动。

即便咱们国家做得再好，他们也不会就此罢休，还是会煽动舆论，对中国指手画脚。至少我是这么认为。

刘欣：这十年里，您觉得昌都和整个西藏最大的变化是什么？您观察到当地民众对这些变化有什么感受？

**根多活佛：**我回国已有十年。在这十年时间里，改革开放迎来了四十周年，我最欣慰和感动的是西藏发生了翻天覆地的变化。

2020年7月29日，西藏昌都市夜景/ CFP

在这样的巨变之下，人民的生活得到了极大的改善，人们更加幸福。

逐一介绍是说不完的，我就举些简单的例子，比如在交通、医疗、教育、环境保护、脱贫攻坚等领域，你都能看到国家对西藏的大力扶持。

总之，西藏在很多方面都取得了举世瞩目的成就，我感到非常开心。

我去过欧洲和美国，我是有发言权的。我可以说在很多方面，西藏和国内一些地方的生活水平甚至超过了西方国家。

刘欣：您能给我们举一个例子吗？

**根多活佛：**例如，美国的医疗保险是为资产阶级服务的，普通民众很难享受到。

当时国内说要建立医保体系，我都不太敢相信。但后来医保体系正式建立起来，我非常吃惊，也倍感自豪。

美国也没有高铁。当我去到美国时，我心想，作为一个发达国家，各项设施应该很先进。当时我打算坐高铁，但是却被告知美国根本就没有高铁，只有普通火车。

刘欣：我们来谈谈西藏宗教信仰方面的相关情况。根据您的观察，当地人有没有宗教信仰自由？具体表现在哪些方面？您能否举一个您日常生活中的例子呢？

**根多活佛：**我真的觉得西藏和整个中国的宗教自由政策特别好，国家斥巨资修缮寺院，保护非物质文化遗产。

2020年，西藏昌都市对强巴林寺内壁画进行修复/ CFP

国家提供了大量资金在西藏地区修建新的佛学院，培养了很多学徒和经师。在传承和发扬佛教文化方面，国家大力支持。

刘欣：二零一六年七月，在西藏日喀则，二十六岁的十一世班禅额尔德尼·确吉杰布举办了时轮金刚灌顶法会，为信徒讲经灌顶，帮助他们理解生命的轮回。这是半个世纪来首次在西藏举行时轮金刚灌顶法会，有超过十万人参加。您也在现场。您当时是什么感受？您认为组织这么大型宗教活动的意义何在？

**根多活佛：**我很荣幸参加了这次活动。大量信教群众能够参加班禅大师主持的时轮金刚灌顶法会，这就是宗教信仰自由的体现。

西藏拥有独特的宗教和文化习俗。我由衷高兴的是十世班禅也开展过类似的宗教仪式。

十一世班禅大师每年都会举行宗教仪式。去年他曾莅临西藏昌都强巴林寺和青海玉树。今年他到四川及西藏的各大寺院开展宗教活动，实现了信教群众的愿望。对此我感到非常高兴。

此外，今年是建党一百周年和西藏和平解放七十周年，习近平总书记来到了西藏。

这次是他第三次来到西藏。习近平总书记对西藏人民无微不至的关心和关爱，百万藏族同胞看在眼里，念在心里。

2021年7月17日，西藏自治区昌都市芒康县/ CFP

刘欣：然而，批评者称中国一直在干预活佛转世认定过程。对此，您怎么看？西藏地区的活佛转世认定是否符合宗教仪轨和历史定制呢？

**根多活佛：**是这样，包括班禅大师在内的各大活佛都是通过金瓶掣签的规制进行认定的。自清朝以来，西藏活佛都是由中央政府认定。

藏传佛教活佛转世的认定包括很多特殊的宗教仪式，需要由地方和中央政府分别进行认定，这一做法至今已有上百年的历史。

清政府对达赖喇嘛和班禅大师等各大活佛授予印章和头衔，这些都能在罗布林卡和博物馆中看得到。通过金瓶掣签和授予金册，转世活佛得到认定。

因此，自古都是由中央政府认定活佛转世并授予头衔。依照藏传佛教的仪轨和历史传统，以班禅大师为首的各大活佛都是根据金瓶掣签的规制进行认定。

自古以来就有活佛转世的认定，现在依旧沿袭了该规制。活佛的认定权归中央所有，外国无权插足和干涉此事。

刘欣：2019年您向政府捐献了三百八十件文物和历史文献。这些物件中有不少是国家一级或者二级文物。您为什么要这样做？

**根多活佛：**我向国家捐献了三百八十件文物，作为一名藏族人，国家、家乡、人民对我有恩，我想为国家和家乡贡献一丝微薄之力，希望国家兴盛、家乡富饶、人民富裕。

这些文物是历代历世收藏之物，我捐赠这些文物是为了让他们得到更好的保护，让历史能再延续上百年。

出于多种原因和目的，在我离开人世之前，我想把这些文物捐献给博物馆，由国家进行登记保管。这是长久之策，也了却了我的心愿。

我希望国家富强，人民平安。

2011年07月01日，西藏博物馆/ CFP

刘欣：在过去的采访中，您提到您的一个愿望，那就是让生活在海外的藏族同胞看到一个真实的西藏。您邀请他们自己来西藏看一看，当然得等到疫情结束后。如果借今天的机会，您想对他们说什么呢？

**根多活佛：**虽然我在国外待了三、四十年，但我和中国领事馆、中央统战部交往密切。一九八四年以后，我多次回到西藏探亲、出席纪念活动。

我用书面和口头的形式，为大家展示我眼中的真实西藏。很多外国人迫切地想看到西藏如今的面貌，所以我带了很多光盘，一边播放一边讲解。

我在国外展示西藏的发展和人民安居乐业的现状。有句谚语是“百闻不如一见”，我鼓励他们亲自回一趟西藏去看看。

（翻页查看英文版）

Tulku Koondhor was only four years old when he was reincarnated as a Living Buddha in Qamdo of eastern Tibet in 1956. He left Tibet three years later and eventually settled in Switzerland in the 1970s. In 2011, he decided to move back. What made him leave the country? And why did he return fifty years later? How did Tibet achieve remarkable development in last decades? Liu Xin spoke to Living Buddha Koondhor himself.

Liu Xin: The title of “Living Buddha” refers to eminent Tibetan monks and later was recognized as a special title for a monk who became the successor of the deceased leader of a monastery. Mr. Koondhor, you were reincarnated at the age of four as one of the four Living Buddhas in the Qamdo Galden Jampaling Monastery. How has your life changed after that moment? And what became your primary duty as a living Buddha?

Living Buddha Koondhor: When I was four years old, I was recognized as the sixth Koondhor Tulku, the Living Buddha of Jampaling Monastery in Tibet’s Qamdo.

When I was young, gaining knowledge was the top priority. So, I began to take various kinds of cultural courses.

After I grew up, I participated in various Tibetan Buddhism rituals. As a Living Buddha, it is my duty to deliver all living creatures from difficulties and bring benefits to them.

Liu Xin: You left Tibet in 1959, around the age of 7. Why did you leave back then？

Living Buddha Koondhor: In about a year after I turned 6, I was the Deputy Director of the Qamdo People’s Liberation Committee. Though I was pretty young, I would insist on participating in the different activities of the committee.

For example, during that one year, as a member of Qamdo People’s Liberation Committee, I also participated in the democratic reform work of the Preparatory Committee for the Tibet Autonomous Region.

There were about 10 to 15 children from aristocratic families who had the opportunity to study in Beijing with government support.

However, my parents, friends and other relatives were strongly against this as they were not aware of the true situation. They were afraid that we would be gone forever and would be away from homeland for a lifetime.

Due to this misperception, we left for India.

There was no doubt that the country cared for us. And we were grateful for it.

Liu Xin: You first lived in Nepal and India for over a decade, and then for another 4 decades in Switzerland. I know it’s very hard to summarize half a century, but if you could try, could you give us a brief description of how you felt while being outside of China, and what were the major difficulties that you had to overcome?

Living Buddha Koondhor: As I said earlier, I really enjoyed the time when I was a member of the Qamdo People’s Liberation Committee. However, due to my parents’ misunderstanding and concerns, they took me away to Nepal and India. At that time, it was tough living in a foreign country.

Later, I went to Switzerland. Although the living conditions were good, my longing for home and my love for my country never wavered.

When I started living abroad, I always listened to China National Radio, the Tibetan People’s Radio, and similar stations to cope with homesickness, as well as to follow what was happening in my homeland.

Then there was China’s reform and opening up. I first returned home in 1984.

Liu Xin: In 1984, at the age of 32, you returned to pay a visit to Tibet Autonomous Region for the first time. Do you still remember scenes from that visit? What impressions did you get back then?

Living Buddha Koondhor: After returning, I found that Tibet had carried out massive infrastructure construction, such as building roads and repairing monasteries. People led better lives, so I felt happy and was very excited.

Liu Xin: After that trip, you stayed in Switzerland for 27 years before moving back. When was that final decision made? How was it made? Did your family and the local communities, especially the Tibetan community, support your decision?

Living Buddha Koondhor: In 1984, both the United Front Work Department of the CPC Central Committee and the leaders of Tibet like Yin Fatang (former secretary of the Committee of the CPC of Tibet Autonomous Region), and Pagbalha Geleg Namgyai (former chairman of the CPPCC of Tibet Autonomous Region), appealed to me to return to China. They said since the reform and opening up, the government had introduced many beneficial policies to support overseas Tibetans.

At that time, I desperately wanted to return. However, my two children, who had just turned 8 and 9, were still in school. I couldn’t leave them behind and had to wait till they finished school.

In 2011, after my two children were 25, graduated and found jobs, they were able to stand on their own feet. So, I was relieved and came back to China.

Liu Xin: You mentioned previously that part of the reason you decided to come back was the local authorities’ persistent investment in Buddhist temples and policies that respect religious freedom. Could you give some examples? Do you think the outside world know enough about these investments and policies? If not, why?

Living Buddha Koondhor: Some foreign news media outlets have been criticizing China’s policies on religious freedom. It is incited by some anti-China and hostile forces abroad who want to provoke China.

Even if our country does a good job, they will not stop. They will still stir up public opinion against China and point fingers at China. At least I think so.

Liu Xin: Over the past ten years what are the biggest changes you have seen in Qamdo and Tibet in general? What’s your observation of the local people’s perception about these changes?

Living Buddha Koondhor: It has been 10 years since I returned. During this period, China celebrated the 40th anniversary of reform and opening up. What makes me most gratified and moved is the radical changes that have taken place in Tibet.

With such dramatic changes, the living standard has been greatly improved and people are happier.

It’s impossible to list everything. Just to give you some brief examples, you can see the extent to which the state has taken care of various sectors such as transportation, medical care, education, environmental protection, and poverty alleviation.

In short, Tibet has made world-renowned achievements in many aspects, which I am particularly delighted about.

I have been to Europe and the United States. So, I can say that the living conditions in Tibet and other parts of China have even overtaken the West in some aspect.

Liu Xin: Could you just give us one example, please?

Living Buddha Koondhor: For example, the U.S. healthcare system usually serves the interests of the bourgeoisie, but not the general public.

I didn’t really believe it when China first planned to build the medical insurance system, but when the system was officially established, I was stunned and proud.

The U.S. does not have high-speed rail either. When I arrived in the U.S., I thought as a developed country, the facilities would be very advanced. At that time, I planned to take the high-speed train, but I was told there are no high-speed trains at all, only ordinary trains.

Liu Xin: Let’s talk about situation concerning religious belief in Tibet. According to your observation, do the local people have freedom of religious belief? How is that manifested? Could you use an example from your daily life to demonstrate your observations?

Living Buddha Koondhor: I do think highly of China’s religious policy in terms of protecting religious freedom in Tibet and other parts of the country. It has spent significant sums on the repair and renovation of many monasteries, and the preservation of intangible cultural heritage.

The country has funded a considerable amount of money to build new Buddhist colleges in Tibetan areas and has trained many apprentices and sutra instructors. It has given great support to inherit and promote Buddhist culture.

Liu Xin: In July 2016, the Kalachakra instructions were delivered by the 11th Panchen Lama in Xigaze, Tibet. The ritual includes a series of teachings that are given by gurus to help Buddhists through the cycle of life. This is the first time in 50 years that the ritual has been performed in Tibet. More than 100,000 people attended the ritual. You were there on side as well. How did you feel at that moment? How do you look at the significance of China holding such a large-scale religious event?

Living Buddha Koondhor: I was honored to participate in the event. The fact that a large number of believers were able to attend the tantric Kalachakra instructions is proof of religious freedom.

Tibet has unique religious and cultural customs. I am truly happy that similar religious rituals were also held during the time of the 10th Panchen Lama.

The 11th Panchen Lama holds religious activities every year. Last year, the 11th Panchen Lama visited the Jampaling Monastery of Qamdo in Tibet and Yushu Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture in northwestern Qinghai province. This year he visited monasteries in Sichuan province and Tibet to conduct religious activities and meet the needs of religious believers. I am very happy to see this.

More than that, President Xi Jinping visited Tibet this year as 2021 is the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Communist Party of China and the 70th anniversary of peaceful liberation of Tibet.

This is his third trip to Tibet. President Xi’s unfailing care and concern for Tibetans has been seen and remembered by millions of Tibetans.

Liu Xin: However, critics say China is “intervening” in the reincarnation process in Tibet. How do you understand the situation? Do these processes align with Buddhist religious rituals and historical conventions?

Living Buddha Koondhor: Yes, this is true. Living Buddhas, such as the Panchen Lama, are identified by “drawing lots from the golden urn”. The reincarnation system for the Living Buddhas in Tibet should be approved by the central government since the Qing Dynasty.

There are many special religious rituals for the identification of the reincarnated Living Buddhas in Tibetan Buddhism. This procedure involves recognition from both the local and central governments, a practice that has been in place for hundreds of years.

The Qing government granted seals and titles to the Living Buddhas such as the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, which can be seen in Norbulingka and museums. The reincarnated Living Buddhas are identified and approved through drawing lots from the golden urn and the golden certificate of appointment.

Therefore, the Central Government has recognized the reincarnation system of the Living Buddhas and conferred titles on them for a long time. The process of “drawing lots from the golden urn” is used to identify the reincarnated Living Buddha, including the grand Living Buddha the Panchen Lama, according to religious rituals and historical conventions of Tibetan Buddhism.

The reincarnation system has been introduced for a long time ago and is still followed today. The reincarnated Living Buddhas have to be approved by the Central Government. Foreign countries have no right to interfere in this matter.

Liu Xin: In 2019, you donated around 380 cultural relics and historic literature to China. Many of these are classified as first- or second-grade cultural relics of China. Why did you do this?

Living Buddha Koondhor: I have donated 380 cultural relics to our country. My country and people have always been kind to me. I want to make my modest contribution to the country and my hometown. I genuinely wish my country and its people prosperity and well-being.

These relics are the collection of generations. I gave them to better protect them, so that they can be preserved for hundreds of years more.

Before my life comes to an end, I want to donate these cultural relics to the museum, to be registered and taken care of by the country, for many reasons. This is a long-term solution as well as my genuine wish.

My hope is that the country prospers, and the people are at peace.

Liu Xin: In previous interviews, you talked about one of your hopes, being to share the real picture of Tibet with Tibetan people living overseas. Now you have invited them to take a look themselves, of course we have to wait until the pandemic is over. What do you want to say to them if you could use the opportunity today?

Living Buddha Koondhor: Although I spent 30 to 40 years abroad, I was closely involved with the Chinese Consulate and the United Front Work Department of the CPC Central Committee, and I was in and out of Tibet many times since 1984 to visit relatives and attend commemorative events as a guest.

I have shared, in written and oral form, the real situation in Tibet that I have witnessed. Foreigners are very interested in knowing what Tibet looks like today, so I have many CDs with me and play them while explaining.

I have showed my overseas audience Tibet’s development and how people are living in prosperity and contentment today. There is a proverb: “Seeing is believing”, and I encourage them to come to Tibet to see for themselves.