柯文思：你可以“不喜欢”中国，但请基于事实

英国导演柯文思 （观察者网3月20日摄于北京钓鱼台国宾馆）

【采访/观察者网 白紫文】

**观察者网：**您这次拍摄武汉纪录片最深刻的印象是什么？

柯文思： 某种程度上，最令我印象深刻的是进入武汉本身。其他人都未获准进入。为此，我要感谢我们的中国制作团队，因为在世界上几乎每家新闻机构——CNN、伦敦《泰晤士报》《卫报》《纽约时报》《洛杉矶时报》——都不同程度声称中国应对这场全球性死亡威胁负责的时候，他们设法说服了一些不得不说服的身居高位之人，表达了我们想记录重大危机时刻下的这座城市（武汉），告诉人们究竟发生了什么。

在我们看来，很多（西方）媒体的评价相当不公平且难以置信。而允许一位西方人进入武汉并试着发现真相，也就需要大量的信任。这是我认为最大的、令人印象深刻的成就，但这并非我的成就。

而当我们进入武汉之后，最令人印象深刻的事，则是看到中国人应对疫情与西方人相比形成了180度的绝对反差。每个人可能都会有抱怨，没有人想被关在自己的公寓里长达76天，你无法责怪他们。但是他们仍然做到了。他们这么做是因为被告知这样最符合他们的最大利益，他们相信政府。这让人印象很深刻，因为在西方，没有人相信政府。这座1100万人口的城市虽然可能不情愿，但仍对政府抱有相当程度的信任，这在西方是不可能遇到的。他们走进自己的公寓，关上门，待在那里，直到医生告诉他们可以安全出来。这很了不起。

**观察者网：**拍摄这部纪录片之后，您收获了中西两方怎样的反馈？

**柯文思：**这个问题我只能部分作答，因为电影还没有上映，但已经差不多完成了。一般我们在影片定剪之前都会做一两场内部测试，邀请了一些我们非常信任的朋友，看看他们的反馈。这次也是一样。

我可以问心无愧地说，看过这部片子的人都被影片里中国人的坦率、真诚震撼和感动到了，有时在一些我们及时记录下的特殊场景，人们还会落泪，因为我们每天都能拍摄到：ICU中有人死去，18岁、20岁、22岁的护士每天冒着生命危险……这是很大的赌注，而且异常危险，当时没有人真正了解这种病毒的能力，它的毒性有多大，以及如果不迅速控制住，它将会杀死多少人。

在武汉进行拍摄时的柯文思导演 图由制片方提供

总的印象是，这部电影会很消耗人的情感，我在很多采访中引用过威廉·莎士比亚的话：“一张图胜过千言万语。”你可以在新闻报道中描述一些事情，但亲眼目睹它发生在你面前，亲眼目睹悲剧中的痛苦、喜悦、得意或悲伤，是一种不同程度的情感强度。这是一部情感强烈的电影。但事实上，它有一个美好的结局，因为76天之后，武汉恢复了正常，这是世界上唯一一个（封城后）恢复往常的城市。

**观察者网：**关于武汉抗击新冠肺炎疫情，我们看到中国和西方讲的故事完全不同。通过这部纪录片，您想要向全世界传递一个什么样的故事？

**柯文思：**我不觉得这部纪录片要讲的是个故事，它要讲的是事实。我们所做的就是邀请许多身在武汉的人讲述他们的经历。有些人对发生的事情感到生气，有些人感到害怕。我们遇到了一些我绝对会视之为英雄的人，他们冒着生命危险去救治、帮助别人。

但我认为这部电影最关键的点在于，（它记录了）中国如何被一场大规模的自然灾害打了个措手不及。所有“病毒是在（武汉）实验室里创造出来的”、“灾难是人为过失导致”的说法都是胡说八道。这是一场可能在地球上任何地方发生的自然灾害。我们都见识了曾经在非洲爆发过的埃博拉。而当疫情来临时，我们需要和时间赛跑，尝试科学地去控制它。

中国在2周内绘制出了病毒基因图谱，之后封锁了整个城市，这在人类历史上是前所未有的，然后用两个月左右时间控制住了疫情。这期间确实走过弯路犯过错，但这些错误也只是在（疫情爆发后）的3-5周内有过。美国犯了一整年的错，英国也一样。

这次疫情中的中国可谓一次不可思议的成功。调动国家能力，在武汉投入8万人解决疫情问题，对组织力的应用以及中国人民的勇敢和责任拯救了这个国家。同样也拯救了武汉，武汉本可能会经历一场绝对的灾难，而灾难之所以没有发生，是因为中国政府的果断，他们迅速做出了艰难的决定。

**观察者网：**作为中国媒体，我们看到了西方媒体是如何报道武汉抗击疫情的，看起来他们是在刻意歪曲事实。

**柯文思：**当然，正是在歪曲事实。这是绝对可耻的做法。身为西方人，我感到羞愧，因为我也曾经是一名记者。大部分时间，我主要是一名电影人，但我曾在BBC和纽约的ABC新闻接受过记者训练，我知道作为记者可以耍弄些什么把戏。我知道记者可以通过编辑、改变呈现方式，让我说的一些话看上去和我刚刚实际表达的意思完全相反，进而歪曲事实，这些技巧我都知道。

西方媒体社镜头下武汉抗疫一线的医护人员 图/美联社

但是这次的事件后果太大，我们必须负责，必须说出真相，必须在该称赞的地方给予称赞。你可以因为一些其他“很有争议的”议题而“不喜欢”中国，比如“窃取知识产权”、“操纵汇率”……随便哪个点。关键在于，你要基于事实进行报道，而且必须要诚实。

武汉的事实则是，中国做出了人类历史上前所未有的举动。去年我在中国生活了一年，安全、稳定，我可以去餐馆吃饭、看电影、在城里闲逛，而我现在定居在加拿大的家人仍被锁在家里，无法出门。

为什么我在中国的生活如此安逸？因为北京做出了负责任的决定。对我来说，这是中国的荣耀。中国可以迅速部署资源、采取行动、承担巨大责任，中国人民会遵守要求，因为他们感到安全、有保障，他们对政府抱有信心。于我而言，这并不寻常。

**观察者网：**中国现在面临的情况是，西方话语占据着上风，而且全世界都在讲英语。在您看来，中国人应该如何向外界传递真相？

**柯文思：**我认为中国应该更坦诚地面对自己的缺点，面对中国做得不太好的方面，中国仍有很多需要改善的地方。西方需要看到中国政府和中国媒体不是“宣传机器”，而是“真相机器”。而问题在于，我认为中国政府、可能还包括一些中国机构，对于西方的立场会感到不必要的不安。就像我在演讲中说的，中国需要变得更加自信、更能主动出击，但不是以一种愤怒的姿态，而是坚定地陈述真相：“那不是事实，这才是事实。你们自行斟酌。”

中国有很多值得骄傲的东西。过去40年的复兴对任何西方人来说都是难以置信的，不幸的是也吓坏了西方人。西方不认为中国成为某种现代超级大国是件好事，觉得这很可怕，甚至可能很危险，因为西方已经习惯了长期都是“第一”，而突然之间，沙盒里多了个新孩子，沙子踢到了我们脸上。我们不喜欢如此，但也必须习惯，因为中国不会消失。

2017年10月8日，采棉机在新疆哈密棉田里收获新棉  新华社蔡增乐摄

我认为我们必须接受这一新现实，那就是出现了一个行事风格不令我们喜欢的新兴超级大国，但这是他们的做事方式，我们必须尊重它，并在所有我们可以打交道的方面相处下去。比如应对气候变化、打击国际恐怖主义，在很多领域中国和西方都可以共存、互相帮助且同时认同我们之间存在差异。你可以与一个不同于你的人结婚，你和她不可能在每件事上都意见一致，但这并不意味着你们必须要离婚，这只意味着你们俩必须要处理彼此的分歧。

所以我感觉平静，尽管现在仍然是个丑陋的时期。但那是因为我们正在承继特朗普政府的毒副作用，一个既不会讲真话、也不信守承诺的人。他把中国当作替罪羊，当作西方所有失误的替罪羊。不幸的是，他得到了很多人的支持，很多人相信他。

**观察者网：**您的纪录片《善良的天使》于2019年上映。它讲述了两个大国合作对中美两国人民的益处。您认为中美关系发生了哪些变化?

**柯文思：**很明显，特朗普改变了一切。我们开始制作《善良的天使》时恰逢特朗普竞选。作为电影人，我们知道自己正在经历一段艰难的时期，因为特朗普在改变（美国）叙事。他对互补性竞争不感兴趣，他感兴趣的是非此即彼的零和竞争。在特朗普看来，美国才应该是竞争中的优胜者（top dog）。坦率地说，中国是被妖魔化了。而4年妖魔化中国的残渣、遗毒，正是我们几天前看到的在亚特兰大遇害的8名亚洲人——他们甚至不全是中国人，因为在美国很多人无法区分泰国人、韩国人和中国人，但这并不重要，只要都是亚洲人。对亚洲人的歧视和暴力程度非常严重，这种情况必须改变。

因此，只有当人们认识到中国不是威胁而可以成为盟友，认识到中国人民也会和他们一样爱、恨、流血、死亡、感染病毒，认识到我们都是共同利益的一部分的时候，西方叙事才能真正改变。我认为，这是唯一能够实现的方法，但需要几十年时间。但是世界正在改变，我希望未来这两个伟大的国家之间能存在更多平衡。

**观察者网：**这几天我们看到在阿拉斯加会面的中美两国领导人彼此间的“言语攻击”非常激烈。拜登政府似乎继承了唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）对中国咄咄逼人的态度。当美国政界人士决心对中国保持进攻性的时候，您认为怎么做可以改善中美关系？

**柯文思：**首先，我并不认为拜登政府和特朗普政府相似。我确实认为，拜登想在国内传递一种“连续性信息”。如果拜登直接说“特朗普告诉你们的一切都是谎言，我要做的事正相反”，这在政治上是不明智的。你必须教育你的选民。如果选民突然相信中国是一个怪物，你不能突然说“不，中国不是怪物，中国是个会满足你所有愿望的仙女”。没人会相信的。

而我认为在这届政府背后，有一些民主党方面的学者对于中国对美国的影响有着更为现实的看法。我认为4年之后，中美关系会变得非常不同，但它需要逐渐转变。我个人对布林肯有点了解，我不认为他是合适的美国国务卿人选。他很聪明，但没有他自己以为的那么聪明。我认为他在阿拉斯加有处理不当之处。坦率地说，美国方面存在一定程度的屈尊与傲慢的心态。但中国接招了，中国没有乱发脾气，只是表示：“我们不会任由摆布。直视我的眼睛，平等地跟我说话。”

**观察者网：**我们有尊严地进行了反击。

**柯文思：**是的，你说得很对。西方必须开始与中国真正的政治打交道。中国不会消失，它会变得更强大、更富有，拥有庞大的中产阶级，1亿人摆脱了贫困，这是一项多么了不起的统计数字。中国人普遍识字。中国注册的专利比西方更多。这个国家必然将在世界舞台上保持领先和中心地位。

我们必须开始理解中国。怎么做到呢？我认为这一点上没有太多的政治姿态可做。但是我们可以叫停所有阻止中国人到美国学习的限制，以及阻止美国人到中国学习的限制，毕竟下一代外交官可能就孕育于其中，他们可能需要在中国中学开始任教，了解中国人是什么样的人，这样他们有一天才能成为（称职的）国务卿。

我们可以停止指责孔子学院是危险的“第五纵队”“间谍之种”，无论如何这都是无稽之谈。我们需要让更多的美国人来中国，也需要让更多的中国人去美国，然后缓慢地修复目前已经非常脆弱、实际上已经破裂的两国关系。

**观察者网：**最后一个问题，您有什么特别想对中国、美国民众说的话？

**柯文思：**我不想只是说一些无聊的陈词滥调，“让我们始终和睦，携手共进”之类的。我想说，为了离间美国人民和中国人民，西方投入了大量的工作、时间和金钱，付出了巨大代价使美国人相信中国人要“吃掉他们的午餐”的议程。这本就是无稽之谈。美国人非常需要避免在没有认真审视事实的情况下，就轻易接受对中国的批评和宣传。不要轻信别人告诉你的关于中国的任何事情，因为那可能都不是真的。

采访英文原稿

**Guancha Media：**What is the most impressive thing in your mind when you think of the documentary you made this time?

**Malcolm Clarke：**Um,impressive. In on one level, the most impressive thing was actually getting into Wuhan. They were kicking everyone else out. For that, I owe a great debt to our Chinese production team. Because they they managed to persuade whoever you have to persuade at a very high level that we wanted to do something which would tell the truth about exactly what was happening in the city at a time of great crisis,when pretty much every journalistic organ in the world, CNN, the Times of London, the Guardian, New York times , Los Angeles Times, they were all, to various degrees,holding China responsible for unleashing a global death threat. And that seemed to us to be rather unfair and implausible. There needed to be a huge amount of trust to allow westerners to go in. And try to find out the truth. And so that was the biggest that was very impressive achievement, which was not my achievement.

When we got there, the most impressive thing was to see how in absolute 180 degree contrast it was in terms of the way the Chinese people responded in comparison to westerners. The degree of trust that Chinese people had in their government…I mean everyone probably complained, nobody wants to be locked in their apartment for 76 days. Who can blame them? But They did it. And they did it because they were told it was in their best interest and they believed the government. That was very impressive because in the west, nobody believes the government. So the notion that a city of 11 million people reluctantly but with a degree of kind of trust which was impossible to find in the west, they walked into their apartments and closed the doors and stayed there, until the medics told them it was safe to come out. And that was remarkable.

**Guancha Media：**What feedback have you received after making the document from both the Chinese side and the western side?

**Malcolm Clarke：**You’re asking me a question that I can only partially answer because the film has not been released yet. It’s almost finished. Normally before we have a picture-lock we would always organize one or two internal screenings and invite a few trusted friends for their feedback. Same this time.

Everyone who has seen it and I say this with a clear conscience, everyone who has seen it, it’s shocked by the candor of the Chinese people in the movie, the honesty of the Chinese people in the movie， and really moved, sometimes to tears by the extraordinary situations that we were lucky enough to film, because we were filming people dying in the ICU every day, we were filming 18-year-old, 20-year-old, 22-year-old nurses, risking their lives. Every day. And the stakes was so high. It was so incredibly dangerous. Nobody really understood what this virus was capable of, how toxic it was, how many people it would kill if it was not controlled quickly.

The overall impression is that the film is emotionally exhausting, because one thing that I say, many times in many interviews, that is a quote from William Shakespeare, who wrote “a picture is worth 1,000 words”. You can describe something in the journalistic article in a story, but to actually see it happen in front of you, and to see the pain, the joy, the elation or the sadness of the tragedy in front of you, is on a different level of kind of emotional intensity. And this film is a very emotionally intense film. But actually, it has a happy ending, because after 76 days, Wuhan went back to business as usual, the only place in the world that did.

**Guancha Media：**The next question. We’ve heard different stories from the Chinese side and western side about Wuhan fighting the coronavirus. So what kind of story this documentary wanted to delivery to the whole world?

**Malcolm Clarke：**I don’t really think it’s a story. It’s the truth. All we did was asking many people who were in Wuhan to describe their experience. There were some people who were very angry about what had happened. There were some people who were very frightened. We met people who I would absolutely regard and describe as heroes，who took risks with their own lives to treat other people, and to help other people.

But I think the overwhelming “take-away” of this movie, is that China was caught off guard with a natural disaster of huge proportions. All this nonsense about being a virus created in a laboratory and about human error and man-made a. It’s nonsense. This was a natural disaster which could have occurred anywhere on the planet. Ebola happened in Africa, I we know, we know this. And then and, when it does, it’s a race against time to try and scientifically contain it. China mapped the virus within 2 weeks, an entire city was locked down, unprecedented in human history. It

contained the virus in 2 months. There were mistakes made, but the mistakes were made over a 3.5-week period. There were mistakes made in America over one year period. In the UK, over one year period. China,in this particular instance, was an amazing success story, and the application of both state capacity, throwing 80000 people into Wuhan and saying fix this problem, the application of organization and bravery and responsibility on the part of the Chinese people saved China. It’s actually saved Wuhan. Wuhan could have been experienced an absolute disaster. It didn’t happen because of the decisiveness of the Chinese government who made hard decisions fast.

**Guancha Media：**As Chinese media， we’ve seen how western medias reporting Wuhan as it’s in combat with the virus. It seems that they are intentionally rejecting twisting the fact.

**Malcolm Clarke：**Of course, twisting the facts. I mean, Absolutely disgrace. Well, it makes me ashamed to be western because I I’m a journalist. Somewhat, I’m a filmmaker mostly, but I was trained as a journalist at the BBC and ABC News in New York. And I know the trick you can play as a journalist. I know the way you can bend the facts and bend the truth, and have me say something which is exactly the opposite of what I just said by the way it’s edited and presented, I know all those tricks. But we’re playing with great stakes here. We have to be responsible. And we have to tell the truth and we have to give credit where credit is due. Now you may not like China because of other things that it does,other things that are very controversial,like intellectual property theft for example, currency manipulation, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, name your kind of hot button issue. But the point is that you went on all those things, you have to examine them on the face of the fact and you have to be honest about them.

And on the facts of Wuhan, China did something unprecedented in human history. I’ve lived in China for the last year，safe，sound，eating in restaurants，going to movie，walking around the town, while my family, which now settles in Canada, is locked down still can’t get out of the house.

Why? Because somebody in Beijing acted responsibly. All that’s to me, that’s the glory of China. That it can deploy those resources and that he can act with great speed and with great responsibility, and that its people follow it, because they feel safe and they feel secure. They have confidence in their government. That’s really unusual.

**Guancha Media：**The situation that China faces right now is that, the western narrative is taking the high ground, and the world speaks English. From your point of view, how should Chinese deliver the truth to the world outside, do you think？

**Malcolm Clarke：**I think China has to be a little bit more honest about its shortcomings, about the things that are not great in China and there’s a lot of them. I think we need to see the Chinese government and the Chinese media as being not a propaganda，but a truth machine. And the problem is that, the Chinese government, and maybe the some Chinese institutions, I feel, are unnecessarily insecure about that position visavis the west. I think they need, as I said, in my speech, I’d like to see China being more confident and more confrontational, but not in a not in an angry way, just calling the facts out.“That’s not true. This is true,make up your own mind.”

China has so much to be proud of.And this renaissance in the last 40 years is just like mind boggling to anybody in the west, that unfortunately frightens people in the west. We don’t think this is great that China’s become a kind of a modern superpower. We think it’s scary, and possibly dangerous. So that because we’ve been used to being number one for so long. So suddenly, as I said in my speech, there’s a new kid in the sandbox. He’s kicking sand in our faces and. We don’t like it, but they’re gonna have to get used to it, because China’s not going to go away.

I think we have to accept the new reality of the fact that there is a new superpower which has a very different way of doing things that we don’t like, but it’s their way and we have to respect it and we have to get along and all the places that we can get along, like climate change for example like, combating international terrorism, there are so many places where China and the west can coexist and help each other and agree that we are going to have differences.I mean you can be married to someone and have differences. You don’t agree about everything,it doesn’t mean you get a divorce, it just means that you have to manage your differences.

So I feel still, despite the fact that this is an ugly period. But that’s because we are inheriting the toxicity of the trump administration, a man who was incapable of telling the truth or walking in a straight line. He was using China as the scapegoat, as the whipping boy for anything that went wrong in the west. And unfortunately, he had a lot of support, and a lot of people believed him.

**Guancha Media：**Your documentary Better Angels released on 2019. It tells stories about how beneficial it could be to both Chinese and American people when these two big countries cooperated. From your observation, what has been changed in the China-US relationship？

**Malcolm Clarke：**Obviously，Trump changed everything and we started making Better Angels when trump was campaigning. We knew that we were in as filmmakers a rough ride, because he was changing the narrative. He wasn’t interested in competition in complementary values, he was interested in zero sum competition. And it was them or us. From his perspective, America wanted it to be them who were top dog. China was demonized frankly. And the detritus of that, the fallout of that, 4 years of toxic demonization of China was exactly what we saw in Atlanta several days ago when eight Asians and who weren’t even all Chinese—because many people in the United States can’t tell the difference between a Thai, a Korean and a Chinese—it doesn’t matter. It’s just you’re all Asian. There’s that level of discrimination and violence against Asians and it’s just awful. That has to change.

So that narrative can only really change if people recognize that China is not a threat, that it can be an ally, and that the Chinese people love, hate, bleed, die, get the virus, just like you do, that we’re all part of a kind of common wealth. That’s the only way that’s going to take decades, I think. But the world is changing and in the future, I hope that there will be more of a balance between those two great nations.

**Guancha Media：**We’ve seen the Chinese and US leaders meeting each other in Alaska in these 2 days and their “word attack” to each other is, fierce. It seems that Biden administration has taken the legacy of Donald Trump and adopted aggressive attitude towards China. So when US politicians have determined to be aggressive against China, what do you think can promote this relationship?

**Malcolm Clarke：**First of all, I actually don’t agree that Biden administration and the trump administration are similar. I do think that they want to send a message domestically of continuity. I don’t think it’s prudent politically for Biden to say everything trump told you was a lie, and I’m going to do something different. You have to educate your electorate. And if the electorate suddenly believes that China is a monster, you can’t suddenly say no, China’s not a monster, China’s a fairy who was going to grant all your wishes. Nobody’s going to believe that.

But I think behind the administration, underneath the administration, there are scholars on the Democratic side who have a much more realistic view of what China can be to America. And I think 4 years from now, it will be quite different, but it needs to evolve. And personally, I know Blinken a little bit and I don’t think he’s the right guy. He’s smart, but he’s not as smart as he thinks he is. I think he mishandled Alaska. Frankly, I think there was a certain level of condescension and arrogance on the American side. But China dealt with it, China did not lose its temper. China just said “We aren’t gonna do that, Look me in the eye and talk to me as an equal.”

**Guancha Media：**We fight back with dignity.

**Malcolm Clarke：**Yes，and I think that’s exactly the right note. I think the west has to start dealing with the real politic of China. China is not going away. It’s going more powerful, wealthier. There’s a budgeting middle class,100 million people pulled out of poverty, which is extraordinary statistic. There’s universal literacy. There’s more patents being registered in China than in the west. This country is here to stay front and central on the world stage.

We have to start to understand it. And how we do that? I think at this, there’s not an awful lot of huge political gestures that can be made. But if we can for example stop all these restrictions that stop Chinese people going to America to learn and that stop American people from coming to China to learn, because this next generation of diplomats need to start somewhere. They need to start teaching in Junior high schools in China, and learning who the Chinese people are so that they can one day be the secretary of state.

So I think we can stop accusing Confucius institutes of being dangerous “5th column”, “the seeds of espionage”, which is a nonsense anyway. I think we need to get more Americans into China，we need to get more Chinese into America, and then slowly build on those very fragile foundations, because the relationship right now is effectively broken.

**Guancha Media：**For the last question, do you have any specific words for Chinese people and American people, respectively?

**Malcolm Clarke：**I think I don’t want to just say something which is a kind of a bromide, which is just silly，“Let’s all get on. Hold hands together.” What I would say is that there’s been a tremendous amount of work and time and money spent to divide American people from Chinese people. There has been an agenda which has been pursued at great expense to have Americans believe the Chinese want to eat their lunch. And it’s nonsense. I think certainly Americans need not to accept easy criticisms and easy propagandistic views of China without seriously examining their own truth for themselves. Don’t take anything that anyone tells you about China at face value. Because it’s probably not true.

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