【海外看中国】天灾还是人祸？真的是吃扁蝠引发了武汉新型冠状病毒吗？_风闻

关于此次武汉新型冠状病毒的源头，一开始是指向武汉华南海鲜市场的野wei区，后来又发现了并没有华南市场接触史的早期案例。有实验室发现此次武汉病毒基因序列与扁蝠身上所带的病毒极为相似，把源头指向扁蝠，后又有专家指出此次病毒可能是由人食用蛇，蜥蜴等野生动物引起。关于这次武汉肺炎与扁蝠的关系，可能需要很长一段时间才能弄清楚。

Quan Zhang, Am Chinese

Originally Answered: Why are people in China eating bats, even though they’re known to carry horrible diseases that can spread to humans?

OP, I’m jusy going to humor you rather than reporting the question as insincere:

There’s a lovely little book called Guns, Germs, and Steel (only $8.51 on Kindle!) that tells you all about how we get diseases. Most of it comes from animal transmission via livestock due to the fact that we spend much more time around them compared to other animal species. It’s not that you get sick from eating an unsuitably weird animal, but you get sick because of exposure to them. For bats, specifically, they’re social animals that live in large colonies, thus diseases spread among them easily, and being flying creatures that spend a lot of energy which in turn causes them to have a very high body temperature, any viruses that do survive on them will survive a normal human fever.

But it doesn’t have anything to do with eating bats, in and of itself.

That Europe and Asia hit the genetic and geography lottery and got most of the donesticatable animals, while the Americas just got dogs and alpacas, is why Old World plagues decimated native populations, but there weren’t very many native diseases wiping out Europeans.

You might as well ask why we eat beef even though we can get mad cow from it.

Quan Zhang

我是中国人

我只是想让你开心，而不是把这个问题说成是不真诚的：

有一本可爱的书叫《枪炮、细菌和钢铁》（Kindle上只要8.51美元！），这告诉你我们是怎么得病的。其中大部分是通过家畜传播的，因为与其他动物物种相比，我们花在它们身上的时间要多得多。不是因为你吃了一种不合适的怪兽而生病，而是因为你接触了它们而生病。特别是对扁蝠来说，它们是群居动物，因此疾病很容易在它们之间传播。它们又是飞行动物，会耗费大量能量，从而导致它们的体温非常高，任何在它们身上存活的病毒都能在正常的人类发烧中存活。

但这本身与吃扁蝠没有任何关系。

欧洲和亚洲中了基因和地理彩票，得到了绝大多数可吃的动物，而美洲只得到了狗和羊驼，这就是为什么旧大陆瘟疫夺走了新大陆的本地人口，但没有太多的本地疾病消灭欧洲人。

你也可以问为什么我们吃牛肉，即使我们可以从中得到疯牛病。

Ray Hart, Digital Nomad Co-Living Davao City and San Diego

This is an airborne virus which isn’t caught by eating anything. Do animals play a role? Possibly. There are millions of strains of coronavirus in the world. Most animals can host some of these viruses, including your pets. What is believed to have happened is this strain started as one form, possibly even in humans, then went through a period of transformation as it was passed between species. That is how most zoonotic diseases come about.

Western media is hyping up the fact that a wet market, which are common all over eastern Asia, has live animals. This is true, but so does your average American grocery store or Walmart Supercenter, Meijers, or a host of similar stores. If you have any doubt take a walk through the meat ans seafood and look at the live lobster & crabs or through the pet department where the fish, birds, or small animals are sold, not to mention the malls with their pet stores usually being fairly close to restaurants and food courts. If you believe that rats, bats, snakes, birds, mice, and feral cats aren’t part of your american grocery store ecosystem then you are deluding yourself. While they do their best to keep such off the sales floors and do what they can, they can be found lurking around any grocery store in America.

The real reason the wet market is the assumed contact point is it is the central shopping location. Going to the wet market in Asia is no different than going to Walmart, Target, or Kroger to buy groceries and incidentals. Shutting down wet markets would be the equivalent of shutting down all the grocery stores in the US and telling people that they can now only buy groceries at the dollar store or 7–11.

Ray Hart

这是一种不会被任何食物传染而是通过空气传播的病毒。动物在其中起作用了吗？可能吧。世界上有数百万株冠状病毒。大多数动物都能感染其中一些病毒，包括你的宠物。据信已经发生的是，这种菌株开始可能是人类身上的一种病毒形式，然后经历了一个转变时期，变得可以在不同物种之间传播。这就是大多数人畜共患病的原因。

西方媒体正在大肆宣传这样一个事实：在整个东亚地区都很常见的潮湿市场上有活的动物售卖。这是真的，但普通美国杂货店或沃尔玛超市，美捷，或许多类似的商店也一样。如果你有任何疑问，可以在肉类和海鲜区散步，看看活龙虾和螃蟹，或者通过出售鱼、鸟或小动物的宠物部，更不用说那些宠物店通常离餐馆和美食广场相当近的商场了。如果你相信老鼠、扁蝠、蛇、鸟、老鼠和野猫不是美国杂货店生态系统的一部分，那你就是在自欺欺人。尽管他们尽最大努力远离销售楼层，但在美国任何一家杂货店附近都能发现他们的身影。

潮湿市场之所以被假定为接触点，是因为它是购物中心。去亚洲潮湿的菜市场和去沃尔玛、塔吉特或克罗格买杂货没什么两样。关闭潮湿的市场相当于关闭美国所有的杂货店，告诉人们现在只能在一元店或7-11购买食品。

Lizy Liz

It is not just the Chinese. Human being had always eaten all these animals before industrialization and urbanization happened. People living in cities are far away from wild animals food resources so slowly they changed their diet to only farm raised animals. People living near to wild animals still consume wild caught meat. This is true in every country in the world. This is actually the natural way of living. Wild caught meat do have higher risk of carrying unknown virus as they were not given various kind of vaccine or drugs to fend off the virus. However, these animals do not suffered the long term torture of spending their whole life in cramped captivity.

Bats were eaten almost to extinction in Italy Bat as food - Wikipedia It is still widely consumed in Africa and south east Asia. I had seen people openly slaughter bats, snakes and other wild animals in the wet market in my country. Not China, not Chinese. My town had easy access to rainforest with abundance of wild animals. It is traditional. It is natural for the natives to consume wild caught meat. It is free. Commercial farm raised animals is a very new concept to them. Like just 30 or 40 years at most. There are laws against hunting without permit now. However, one may still hunt with permit except for some protected species. Yes, I agree that there is risk.

No one created the virus (let’s eliminate the possibility of bioweapon here). Microorganisms are prone to mutation naturally. Even our human body cells mutated easily. Think cancer cells. Maybe every living organism has survival code in them. Human advance medicines had prevented a lot of microorganisms from attacking one of their hosts, humans. The number of wild animals decreased. The virus are in dire situation. They could not find enough host to continue their genetic codes. The only way is for them to mutate and become stronger so they could attack more hosts. Well, this is just a theory but I do believe that sooner or later the nature is going to cut down the number of human beings. Because our numbers is just too big and overwhelming. Being the country with most number of people. It is just normal that virus outbreak is more prone to happen in China. Where there are more hosts, there are more virus. When there are more virus, it is easier to get mutated virus. Just my unprofessional theory.

There is actually no proof that the virus started specifically from bats. What the Chinese authorities discovered was that there were samples found to have the virus protein on them. Most of them are from the wild caught animals section. So they believed that wild animals might be the source.

However, there could also be another possibility. The wild animals might have caught the virus from human being. Maybe it was the hunter. Maybe it was the transporter. Since this virus is not 100% deadly. The hunter might be just a carrier. Hunters who live in rough condition usually have higher immune system than city folks. It is generally known that people grew up in dirty slump has stronger immune systems against contaminated foods and drinks. Some people might have natural resistance to some virus. So these animals caught it from a human hunter. Brought to a city market which has all the condition for it to spread fast.

Or, this virus might already be dormant inside an wuhan resident. It mutated at one time. This person not realizing it. He loves wild caught meat. Maybe he just love to watch the animals like I did when I was little. Maybe he knew someone working there and always went there to say hello. Spent the most time at the wild meat section where there is a lot of living animals. Hence explained why most samples are from wild caught section but not all of them.

I could be totally wrong because I only got a little bit of information and is just doing wild guessing.

I have a few questions if it is from the wild animals:

Where are the hunters and transporters now?

Did the hunters and transporters get infected?

Is there any news about some distance village where this virus attacked the village where the hunters live? (Haven’t heard about it)

Is it possible that the first patient might be the first host where this virus mutated?

I am not a scientist. Not a professional. Just a commoner with wild imagination.

Lizy

不仅仅是中国人，在工业化和城市化之前，人类就一直吃这些动物。生活在城市里的人们远离野生动物等食物来源，所以他们慢慢地将饮食改为只吃饲养的农场动物。住在野生动物附近的人仍然食用野外捕获的肉类，世界上每个国家都是这样。这其实是自然的生活方式。野外捕获的肉类携带未知病毒的风险更高，因为它们没有接种各种疫苗或药物来抵御病毒。然而，这些动物并没有遭受在狭窄的囚禁中度过一生的长期折磨。

扁蝠作为食物在意大利几乎被吃到灭绝--维基百科。它在非洲和东南亚仍然被广泛食用。在我的国家（不是中国，我也不是中国人），我曾看到人们在潮湿的市场上公开屠杀扁蝠、蛇和其他野生动物。我的镇上很容易进入雨林因此有很多野生动物，当地人食用野外捕获的肉类是很自然的，这是传统。而且它是免费的。商业化的农场饲养动物对他们来说是一个非常新的概念。最多也就三四十年。现在有法律禁止未经许可的狩猎。然而，除了一些受保护的物种，人们仍然可以在许可证下狩猎。是的，我同意有风险。

没有人制造出病毒（让我们排除生物武器的可能性）。微生物很容易自然发生突变。甚至我们的人体细胞也很容易变异，想想癌细胞。也许每个生物都有生存密码。人类先进的药物已经阻止了许多微生物攻击它们的宿主之一人类。野生动物的数量减少了，病毒的情况很糟糕，他们找不到足够的宿主来继续他们的遗传密码。唯一的办法是让它们变异并变得更强，这样它们就能攻击更多的宿主。好吧，这只是一个理论，但我相信自然迟早会减少人类的数量。因为我们的数字实在太大了。中国是人口最多的国家，病毒在中国更容易爆发是正常的。宿主越多，病毒就越多。病毒越多，就越容易变异。当然这只是我不专业的理论。

事实上没有证据表明病毒是从扁蝠身上开始的。中国当局发现的是，有样本发现上面有病毒蛋白。他们中的大多数是野生动物科的。所以他们相信野生动物可能是源头。

不过，也有另一种可能。野生动物可能从人类身上感染了这种病毒。也许是猎人，也许是运输工具。因为这种病毒不是100%致命的，猎人可能只是一个携带者。生活在恶劣环境中的猎人通常比城里人有更高的免疫系统。众所周知，在肮脏的环境中长大的人对受污染的食物和饮料有更强的免疫系统。有些人可能对某种病毒有天然的抵抗力。所以这些动物是从一个人类猎人那里捕获的。把它带到一个有条件让它迅速传播的城市市场。

或者，这种病毒可能已经潜伏在武汉居民体内，它曾经变异过，但这个人没有意识到。他喜欢吃野生动物。也许他只是喜欢像我小时候那样看动物。也许他认识一个在那里工作的人，总是去那里打招呼。大部分时间是在野肉区，那里有很多活的动物。因此解释了为什么大多数样品来自野生捕获区，但并非全部。

我可能完全错了，因为我只得到一点信息，只是在胡乱猜测。

如果是野生动物的话，我有几个问题：

猎人和运输车现在在哪里？

猎人和运输员被感染了吗？

关于这个病毒袭击猎人居住的偏远村庄有什么消息吗？（没听说过）

第一个病人可能是第一个病毒变异的宿主吗？

我不是科学家，不是专业人士，只是一个想象力丰富的平民。

​

David Johnson, Library Computer Person

Not really any more than any other animals are known to carry “horrible diseases." Pigs and chickens, for instance, are the source of many of our epidemics.

And, anyway, that whole “coronovirus started because someone ate a bat" story is, not to put too fine a point on it, bullshit.:

“Don’t Blame Bat Soup for the Wuhan Virus

Racist memes target Chinese eating habits, but the real causes of the coronavirus are more mundane.

BY JAMES PALMER

JANUARY 27, 2020, 6:40 PM

As news of the Wuhan virus spread online, one video became emblematic of its claimed origin: It showed a young Chinese woman, supposedly in Wuhan, biting into a virtually whole bat as she held the creature up with chopsticks. Media outlets from the Daily Mail to RT promoted the video, as did a number of prominent extremist bloggers such as Paul Joseph Watson. Thousands of Twitter users blamed supposedly “dirty” Chinese eating habits—in particular the consumption of wildlife—for the outbreak, said to have begun at a so-called wet market that sold animals in Wuhan, China.

There was just one problem. The video wasn’t set in Wuhan at all, where bat isn’t a delicacy. It wasn’t even from China. Instead it showed Wang Mengyun, the host of an online travel show, eating a dish in Palau, a Pacific island nation. Sampling the bat was simply an addition to the well-trodden cannon of adventurism and enthusiasm for unusual foods that numerous American chefs and travel hosts have shown in the past.

At a time of heightened fear over a viral pandemic, the Palau video has been deployed in the United States and Europe to renew an old narrative about the supposedly disgusting eating habits of foreigners, especially Asians. Images of Chinese people or other Asians eating insects, snakes, or mice frequently circulate on social media or in clickbait news stories. This time, that was mixed with another old racist idea: that the “dirty” Chinese are carriers of disease. Many Americans long believed that, as the New York Daily Tribune wrote in 1854, Chinese people were “uncivilized, unclean, filthy beyond all conception.” Today, those same ideas have often been transferred to other groups such as South American refugees, yet they still persist in the way some Westerners think about China.

At a time of heightened fear over a viral pandemic, the Palau video has been deployed in the United States and Europe to renew an old narrative about the supposedly disgusting eating habits of foreigners, especially Asians.

These prejudices can fuel fear and racism. As the Wuhan virus spreads, the Chinese as a group are more and more likely to be blamed for its incubation and spread. In countries such as Malaysia and Indonesia, where there are already clashes around ethnic Chinese, those sentiments could turn nasty. In the West, especially under the Trump administration, it could fuel both government and public prejudices.

To be sure, the treatment of wildlife may be at the root of the virus. Wet markets where live animals are sold, mostly for food or medicine, still exist in most Chinese cities, and the Huanan Seafood Market was originally believed to be the source of this outbreak. The Chinese government has banned the wildlife trade until the epidemic is over.

But as it turns out, the market may not have been the cause of the outbreak at all. A new study shows that the early known victims had no contact with the market. And although the virus, at present, does seem to have originated in bats, it’s unclear how it made its way to humans. It’s quite likely no chowing down on the creatures of the night was involved.”

David Johnson

图书馆计算机管理员

并不是所有其他动物都有“可怕的疾病”，例如猪和鸡是我们许多流行病的源头。

而且不管怎么说，那整个“冠状病毒是因为有人吃了扁蝠”的故事是胡说，别说得太过火了。

“不要把武汉病毒归咎于扁蝠汤”，种族主义的巨魔以中国人的饮食习惯为目标，但冠状病毒的真正原因可能更为普通。

作者：詹姆斯·帕尔默        2020年1月27日下午6:40

随着武汉病毒的消息在网上传播，一段视频成为了其声称来源的象征：视频显示，一名年轻的中国妇女，据说在武汉，用筷子托起扁蝠时，咬了几乎整只扁蝠。从《每日邮报》到RT（今日俄罗斯）的媒体都在宣传这段视频，保罗·约瑟夫·沃森（Paul Joseph Watson）等一些著名的极端主义博主也是如此。数千名推特用户将此次疫情归咎于所谓的“肮脏”的中国饮食习惯，特别是野生动物的食用，这次病毒爆发据说是在中国武汉一个出售动物的所谓潮湿市场开始的。

只有一个问题：这段视频根本不是在武汉拍摄的，那里的扁蝠不是美味佳肴。视频甚至不是从中国来的。而实际上是王梦云，一个在线旅游节目的主持人在太平洋岛国帕劳吃的一道当地菜，而在许多美国厨师和旅游主办方在过去显示出的冒险主义和对不寻常食物的热情时扁蝠只不过是一个简单的菜式补充。

在人们对病毒大流行的恐惧加剧之际，帕劳的视频被发布到美国和欧洲，以重温关于外国人，特别是亚洲人据称令人厌恶的饮食习惯的旧说法。中国人或其他亚洲人吃昆虫、蛇或老鼠的图片经常在社交媒体或点击诱饵新闻中传播。这一次，这与另一个古老的种族主义思想混杂在一起：即“肮脏”的中国人是疾病的携带者。许多美国人一直认为，正如《纽约每日论坛报》（the New York Daily Tribune）在1854年所写的那样，中国人是“不文明、不洁、肮脏的，这是所有人都无法想象的”。如今，这些同样的观念常常被转移到其他群体，如南美难民，但他们仍然坚持一些西方人对中国的看法。

这些偏见会助长恐惧和种族主义。随着武汉病毒的传播，作为一个群体的中国人越来越有可能被指责为其孵化和传播的罪魁祸首。在马来西亚和印尼等国，与华人的冲突已经发生，这些情绪可能变得恶劣。在西方，尤其是特朗普政府时期，这可能会助长政府和公众的偏见。

当然，对野生动物的治疗可能是病毒的根源。在中国大多数城市仍然存在着出售动物的主要市场，主要是食物或药品，而华南海鲜市场原本被认为是此次疫情的源头。中国政府已经禁止野生动物贸易，直到疫情结束。

但事实证明，市场可能根本不是爆发的原因。一项新的研究表明，早期已知的受害者与市场没有接触。尽管目前这种病毒似乎确实起源于扁蝠，但还不清楚它是如何传播到人类身上的。很有可能与夜间生物无关。

图片来源于网络，侵删

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